Finally found a perfectly useable Windows Laptop!! Enjoy!

denhaag135

Thank you very much for your success story! I am looking for a laptop and this helps me a lot for my decision process. I was undecided between Lenovo and Dell.

So the Intel integrated graphic card also works fine for you? I have read different things about temporal dithering and it has been a bit confusing.

I might actually buy this one as well, though I also had my eye on the Dell Precision 3490. I will compare and see, but if you have any more experiences regarding other Dell or Thinkpad models I'd be glad to hear about those.

Stephan-M

I might be that you can get a true 8 bit panel also with other Dell devices. I didn't find any specific information from other manufacturers.

Point is that Dell and HP have the most acceptable devices from this point of view. Lenovo is highly problematic with the never models, HP works fine with the newer Pavilion models.

Temporal dithering is not a problem related to the integrated graphic cards, since it's output is set to 8 bits by factory. The problem is and remains the panel used by the manufacturer. If it is a 6+2Bit FRC panel, it will dither.

If you find a true 8 bit panel, it will probably work out.

NB! If some of you do not have the financial possibilities to buy a new laptop or a Latitude 7450, try to get your hands on a true-8-bit monitor from manufacturers like DELL; BENQ; EIZO; etc. - I'd recommend on of those, since they care about eyesafety. Look at interviews with key figures, doctors, photo-editors, and so on. Those are the brands you will mostly see on their desks.

Check the device first on: https://www.displayspecifications.com/

Stephan-M

Funny fact with a less funny proof for us, humans.

When I tried out the MacBook Air M1, after reading about it having the IPS panel, I had it placed on my kitchen counter. My dog came in. He usually sits by my side for hours when watching TV or working on my PC.

This time, he looked at the display of the Air and I instantly observed how his look involuntarily transformed into a longer gaze, he started to have a dizzy expression, slightly shaking his head to break the gaze and directly went away to sit down, not beside me as usual, but in the corner of the room from which he didn't have the screen in his visual field anymore.

His reaction was not based on being impressed by the brand or by how good the M1 chip might be. His reaction was an important clue from a honest being, that just reacted accordingly to his feelings about that specific stimulus.

You can draw the conclusion.

asus389

Does this Dell also not have PWM? Also which configuration did you get besides the 400 nit non touch panel?

Stephan-M

Yet again, the configuration itself is not of that high importance. The panel is important. You can set integrated as well as dedicated GPUs to 8 or 10 bit outputs, which would eliminate dithering if you have a true 8 bit panel or an true 10 bit panel, either laptop panel or external monitor.

From my experience HP and Dell produce good devices regarding eye fatigue/strain and the best tipically are the dedicated ones.

If you want to see the configuration, I noted the model description: DELL Latitude GV98K with BOE0B18 400nits non-touch panel.

Regarding PWM, I do rather not believe that a eye comfort true-8-bit installed in a business machine would be set to use a PWM controller. Nervertheless, since I couldn't find the information online, I have just made a request to BOE. Hope that they will get back to me in a few days.

Good question!

Subjectively I do not think that it is using PWM.

Stephan-M

If this panel uses PWM too, I am out.

That would mean contacting BOE, asking them if they have true-8-bit or FRC-less panels which are strictly controlled by DC Dimming and seeing if they can provide information about which manufacturer uses that exact specific panel.

Stephan-M

Update: The Latitude 7450 2 in 1, which uses a 300nit panel also manufactured by BOE (BOE0B8F) was tested by notebookcheck with the X-Rite and does not use PWM.

I think I looked this up one time before buying the machine.

Therefore I do not think that DELL found the need to use a PWM panel for power consumption reduction or else, in the non 2-1 version.

Let's see what the guys at BOE will reply.

ulib

Stephan-M Hi Stephan, thanky a lot for your information on the DELL Latitude 7450 GV98K. Are you from Europe? If yes, could you share the exact link to the store where you bought it?

For me it's getting harder and harder to find a Notebook that works. Privately I am using a Thinkpad T480s which wokrs perfect. For my Job, I recently bought the same model with same specifications. But the Display turned out to be a different model causing me medium eye strain. Not as bad as a current iPhones but still bad 🙁.

Kind regards

Uli

moonpie

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Stephan-M

moonpie

Honestly, I am not interested into trying out Linux by now. What would your interest be into me trying it out? I assume it will work, still, if Windows is perfectly usable without heavy strain, I'm fine.

A smartphone camera should show PWM, nevertheless, I would rather wait for a clear answer from BOE.
FRC is dithering. Dithering is turned off in W11 by factory. I have not seen a model so far that came with the software dithering, that you can turn on or off from the Windows Display settings, turned on. There might be some.

- Question: Why are most laptops unbearable to use for eyestrain sensitive people then? My Lenovo P14s was an amazing machine. Why did it dither extremely when software dithering was turned off? Because of the 6bit + FRC panel. FRC is dithering set by hardware.

But yes, a few 6+2FRC machines are usable. It highly depends on the specific panel.

Stephan-M

moonpie Now I have read a few posts of you and understand your idea.

Yes, I have tried different Linux Distros a few years ago and was happier with them. The eyestrain was gone, since Linux is programmed to process the image output differently.

That is why a Mac will heavily dither even if connected to a true-8-bit or true-10-bit monitor. They process the image in a terribly beautiful way. Same with iPads connected to external monitors. Instant brainfreeze.

Do you consider Fedora to be the best distro regarding flicker-free image processing?

simplex

Stephan-M Why are most laptops unbearable to use for eyestrain sensitive people then

In the old days, the OS rendered the interface without decorations, now they started to make it "beautiful". Also, new video cards support contrast improvements, tone curves, dithering algorithms - all this leads to image recalculation and (potentially) pixel flickering, which most likely manifests pixel inversion or FRC of the display more strongly

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

Stephan-M Yes, I have tried different Linux Distros a few years ago and was happier with them. The eyestrain was gone, since Linux is programmed to process the image output differently.

I've had the opposite experience, a ThinkPad with an old TN display which is otherwise good on Windows (and best with older Windows like LTSB 2015), instantly becomes unusable when booting into multiple Linux distros, no matter if its an old Linux version from 2018 or a current one. Also tried both GNOME and MATE desktop environments, compositor on/off, and both Wayland and X, but all of those still managed to mess up what is otherwise a really good TN display on Windows. Still had problems even when Linux graphics acceleration was turned off.

Same with another old laptop I have (which has one of the only IPS displays I've used that actually works for me), it's very usable in Windows 8.1, but immediately causes strain in Ubuntu 24.04. Interestingly I had a somewhat better experience with Arch Linux, but still not as good as Windows 8.1.

I'm pretty sure though that the root cause is how the Linux kernel interacts with the Intel graphics chipset. Linux issues on this forum seem to be heavily tied to Intel integrated graphics devices. It seems more likely for dedicated GPU users to have a chance of a better experience on Linux.

moonpie

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asus389

It looks like the GV98K comes up when I Google it on some 3rd party sites but I can’t get the Dell website to configure the 7450 exactly as that model is. Although I’m not familiar enough with the Dell site to be able to get it to pull up configs by model codes so maybe I’m just doing it wrong. I’m in the USA if that matters.

Gurm

Following this thread. My workplace has moved to Lenovo but I can still order Dell. The 7420 is the best I've used in recent times - certain panels on the Latitude 74xx series have always been good.

moonpie

...........

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

moonpie The same Linux distro is fine when running within Windows 10 on a VirtualBox VM. Same settings on the native install and VM install.

I make sure to install old fonts and set freetype back to the original legacy rendering style on all of my Linux installs and tests, so I already know about that.

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

ulib I recently bought the same model with same specifications. But the Display turned out to be a different model causing me medium eye strain.

Try replacing the panel with AUO B140XTN02.D TN display, look for units of that panel that were manufactured in 2015 or earlier, it solved my eye strain on T480

(tried 6 different 1080p/900p IPS panels including the stock one and they all caused eye strain, but this AUO TN didn't)

ulib

Hi,

I ordered the DELL Latitude 7450 GV98K yesterday directly at DELL and it just arrived. Sadly, it casuses mild eyestrain. I just looked up the display type, and mine is a LG 400 Nits 8 bit display, not the BOE 🙁 So I still wonder where you bought your notebook!

Kind regards

Uli

Donux

ulib Its always tricky with panels, as these are not in the specification, hence it means there is no legally binding contract between buyer and seller. The only route I was thinking about - hoping that somone would say LG laptops are great, since it would be unlikely for them to use non-LG panel external suppliers.