AgentX20 I've not used the 2410 extensively (its more of a backup in case one of my two 2407s fail), but when I've used it it's been A-OK - even on the end of laptop that gives me trouble if I use its built-in screen.

I wonder why this is? IF dithering is the issue does that mean somehow certain monitors are not allowing it/deciding to ignore it? I have seen several people claim laptops were ok but when plugged in to external displays they had strain...this is the first time I think I have seen someone say the laptop display is bad but the external was ok. So frustrating and so many variable...connection types, protocols etc.

      hpst I wonder why this is? IF dithering is the issue does that mean somehow certain monitors are not allowing it/deciding to ignore it?

      If we knew the answer this I think we'd be well towards solving this dilemma.

      I think some screens are bad, some video cards are bad, and some software is bad. Put them together in various combinations and who knows what you'll get.

        pro tip. if you turn the color all the way down.. no FRC/ color temporal dithering. #changemymind

          has anyone here actually accomplished true 8-bit with FRC turned off?

          Guys count me in if donations are needed. Maybe we gather money and buy some person Dasung to run dithering tests, or even better person that already has Dasung and each of us just buys him a graphic card to test 🙂
          This 10bit FirePro setup deserves Dasung dithering test.

          @deepflame
          Wounder if there is way to force 8bit instead 10bit to those apps, like Mac force low resolution for old apps that can't support Retina...(I know it's different thing, just saying maybe there is some backward compatible mode)
          https://www.idownloadblog.com/2016/06/24/launching-apps-in-low-resolution-mode-on-retina-display-macs/

          Has anybody tried true/native card and monitor (both 8 or 10bit)?
          Has anybody tried CRT monitor?

          reaganry pro tip. if you turn the color all the way down.. no FRC/ color temporal dithering.

          I'd be fine with that personally as nothing I do requires "vibrant" colors etc...I'd be fine with black and white for 90% of things honestly...but how? I just want to shut off dithering to see if its the problem and to continue to be able avoid it if it is. I don't care HOW we do it.

            hpst

            Monitors may have their own dithering function, particularly TN monitors which generally can't do 8-bit natively, so dither up from 6bit. Might be worth considering that there are different algorithms for dithering, I suspect I am more tolerant of some than others.

            • hpst replied to this.

                Seagull Monitors may have their own dithering function, particularly TN monitors which generally can't do 8-bit natively, so dither up from 6bit. Might be worth considering that there are different algorithms for dithering, I suspect I am more tolerant of some than others.

                This confuses me further since the most safe displays people talk about are CCFL/TN. I have one safe 2006 Era CCFL/TN laptop panel...and one 2012 IPS/LED on an iPad 2...but every other panel of any type I've been able to try in the last year has caused strain. Every laptop panel I tried in various 2014-2015 Thinkpad's were IPS and 6bit natively, although were called "6+2" in the specs meaning 6 actual and 2 FRC as I understood it. I can't find a single panel of any type that makes those laptops usable and none of the brand new laptops I have tried in various shops don't strain me.

                    hpst

                    I can't explain it but I have an idea, it might be worth considering that older monitors have much slower response times. New TNs can respond <5ms, older TNs >30ms when changing the colour of a pixel.

                    That probably softens any dithering.

                    • hpst replied to this.

                        Seagull It sounds at once logical from a detached point of view...but also so hard to believe because it's hard to accept that things in the ms range could really take something from unnoticable to eye straining. It feels like when people argue over fps etc and is reaching. But like everything else we deal with unless we could objectively test it we can't know. It feels like display tech is out to kill us sometimes. Adding more and more noxious stuff for the sake of pretty.

                            hpst

                            It is an over-simplification, but it might help to consider that a 30ms response time would equate to about 33frames per second (or Hz). If that monitor has a nominal refresh rate of 60fps (or Hz), then it may not respond fast enough to show any dithering.

                            Its kind of similar to the argument where ccfl pwm is more tolerable than led pwm because the rate of change of colour is slower and not instant.

                                Seagull I was thinking more about this and looked up the specs on my current "bad" panel in a Thinkpad..its an LG LP140WF3SPD1 and PWM free, and has a 25ms response time according to panelook.com but this laptop is still straining. I have put all sorts of panels in it from TN to IPS and everywhere from 5ms or so to 28-30ms with no success. So that feels like it can't be related to response time. Although as you know there are so many other factors who knows what combo is the trigger.

                                  Seagull It is an over-simplification, but it might help to consider that a 30ms response time would equate to about 33frames per second (or Hz). If that monitor has a nominal refresh rate of 60fps (or Hz), then it may not respond fast enough to show any dithering.

                                  It resembles the article I have linked in one of the other threads: https://www.lifewire.com/lcd-displays-and-bit-color-depth-833083 - they claim there's a clear relation between bit depth and response time of screens. Anyway it's hard for me to believe that every panel with over 8ms response time is 8 bit since almost no notebook panel is faster than this as I browse Notebookcheck reviews.

                                      andc

                                      You are correct, what is written there is misleading, but not entirely wrong. Modern TN monitors are quick and 6bit, IPS are slower and 8-bit. But slow TNs are not 8bit, they are just slow.

                                        andc Anyway it's hard for me to believe that every panel with over 8ms response time is 8 bit since almost no notebook panel is faster than this as I browse Notebookcheck reviews.

                                        I have spent a lot of time looking at panel specs on panelook.com and nearly all laptop panels I have seen are not true 8 bit panels but rather listed as 6+2 meaning 6 bits plus using dithering to get 2 more bits for a total of 8. For example here is the HD panel in a 2018 X1 Carbon http://www.panelook.com/B140HAN03.1_AUO_14.0_LCM_parameter_32138.html It just says "6+FRC" but many say explicitly "6+2 FRC"

                                        Even the fancy HDR panel on the X1 Carbon 6th gen seems to not really be 12 bit HDR as it is advertised but rather 8+4. IF dithering is an issue then this is super relevant because most laptops are only 6 bit natively but being told to show 8-bits. But since laptop panels are "dumb" and require the gpu to tell them to dither I hope that means we can somehow force the output to the native color depth so the dithering doesn't happen.

                                        But as usual it's confusing because IF dithering was the root cause it would seem logical to think an older 262k 6bit TN panel would be strain free and in my experience it is not...but to be fair I was unable to find one without PWM to avoid that variable. I don't know if that means those panels are still capable of dithering above 6 bits or if something else is going on.

                                        • JTL replied to this.
                                        • andc likes this.

                                            Wow, I didn't know that this site contains such details. That's great that we can see what the actual bit depth of panel is if we know the model - thanks a lot.
                                            Regarding PWM - I tend to believe every panel nowadays uses some kind of flickering - either as a whole and/or on individual (sub)pixels level. Actually I find panels using PWM better at first - the picture seems to be more stable, there's less snow, of course at the highest brightness setting. The ones that are supposed to be PWM-free (at least my phone doesn't see the lines) start causing issues within a matter of seconds / minutes. So I think they may employ some micro-PWM-like mechanism that doesn't look like on/off on oscilloscope tests, but the whole screen works all the time, especially when brightness gets reduced - something which I observed under microscope on lower brightness levels.

                                            • hpst replied to this.

                                              andc Unfortunately that site doesnt list PWM use as its info comes from manufacturers and they don't want to share that with anyone it seems. "Flickering" is a broad term and PWM backlight flickering is entirely different than dithering/FRC, but who knows if the results with regard to strain is the same or not. My personal experience has been that PWM is irrelevant since using known PWM free panels causes the same amount of strain as ones with visible PWM. It surely can't be GOOD for us but I've never seen someone solve their strain by simply removing PWM.

                                                Sure, but at least low PWM can be easily tested with phone, and there are many reviews by Notebookcheck that cover various panels, so mixing results we can find panels that are 8-bit without FRC and PWM-free. That doesn't guarantee anything, but at least that's less enemies to defeat.

                                                  andc For me at least it doesn't matter if they are PWM free and 8-bit. I have seen such panels at shops and they still strained me. The Dell XPS 15 is an example. That's what makes the dithering thing confusing because if that IS a major factor then why would it be happening on a true 8-bit panel? Does that mean dithering isn't a cause of strain? Does that mean it's trying to dither even higher to 10-bit etc?

                                                      hpst
                                                      As usual, we can only guess, and try to find a needle in a haystack. I've been also thinking about refresh rates, frequencies, etc. For example I have some ear issues where particular frequencies tend to cause me physical pain (probably due to many years with headphones, etc.). There seems to be a relation between eye strain, sinus / jaw issues in some cases, both of them have also effect on ears. The pressure I can feel from staring at some laptops resembles sinus pain. So maybe our eyes are sensitive to specific frequencies, the same as ears, and these frequencies might have changed in recent years - due to dithering, new technology, more powerful gear, etc. Since we have different sight we may be sensitive to different frequencies - that would explain why someone can't use PWM screen with low refresh rate, while it doesn't bother other people. Just a thought, one of options.

                                                        dev