Not sure if you know this yet, but rtings.com test TVs, and they test backlight luminosity in a time range of 0.02 s. Go to any (recent) review, search "Motion Blur", and then open the "picture" link in the line "Backlight: picture".
If the line is flat, it could mean no PWM or at least high PWM.
TV's
I have a hard time finding TV's tat do not trigger eye strain headaches. I have a Panasonic Plasma that when hooked up to my TiVo HD, works find. However if I use a Roku or Amazon Fire stick on the same TV, I get an eye strain attack. Same settings, same display, same input ort, one hurts me, one doesn't.
Also, streaming content through my Tivo hurts me as well. Output from the Tivo HDD, fine, output from streamed content, not fine
Any newer Tivo, Roamio or Bolt, and instant eye strain headache. Remember this is with ZERO changes to settings or adjustments to the screen. This is still a complete mystery to me as to why that happens.
Got LED, it depends on the TV. I found a Panasonic LED TV that when set to GAME mode, which makes everything really bright, causes me no problems when watching my Tivo, OR watching streamed content from the TV itself (it is a smart TV). However, hook up a new Tivo Roamio or Bolt to the same TV, same HDMI port, same settings, same everything, instant eye strain headache.
It is so mystifying, I have not done much reasearch on the topic. Obviously whatever is actually driving the screen, and not the screen itself, plays a large part in all this
Esente sounds like we have quite a lot of overlap in our experience although I can't use LED TV's at all without instant problems. I started a forum about the firestick a while back but for ease, check out my opening points pasted here.......
"This is a new one as there is no display or LED component that I can see on the device. It is plugged into my LCD TV (from a pre-LED backlight age) just like I do with the tablet. With the tablet running through the LCD TV I am fine but can't look at the screen. Bizarrely this new device which is just a plug and play stick is somehow causing problems.
I can see no reason why this would cause me grief except the way it transmits through the TV could result in a disrupted signal that flickers as it projects images onto my LCD TV. Not sure why this would do that if the tablet doesn't. Any ideas people? Could this be the infamous PPM issue you have all been discussing.
Will keep using it for a few days but so far definitely causing pressure on the eyes, nose and head albeit not forehead splitting pain which I get from LED. It kind of feels like a grinding or contracting feeling in those areas. If nothing else, this experiment suggests there is more going on than just an LED issue with me but also makes it even more confusing and hard to narrow down a solution."
Some of the other people responding reckon this is PPM but what can be done with the amazon fire-stick to resolve this? It isn't exactly designed to be updated with new drivers and stuff is it.
Actually esente, this makes sense. I have the same problem with my Plasma - Blu Rays are fine. XBox 360 is fine. But stream from the built-in "smart apps" and it hurts. I think those apps have dithering of some kind. The XBox One is also pretty bad (although better on this TV than others) and again I find that the dithered output is to blame. I put it in XBox 360 mode and it is better, although not as good as the XBox 360 itself. I think that there is temporal dithering from the Radeon chip in the unit. Many streaming sticks also use low-cost chips which use dithering output.
a month later
I'm really worried about what will happen when my plasma dies. I hope it has some years left in it, but I sure would like to pick another one up second hand so that I can keep using plasma until they (hopefully) start coming out with some eye-friendly OLED TVs.
16 days later
incidentally regarding plasmas, when I put an microscope up to a panasonic vieria I was surprised to find there is no visible RGB subpixels, just the intended colour. Wondering if that might be part of why I tolerate them so well.
9 months later
Do somebody of you know if there are any pwm free tv's?
Harrison I saw a LG OLED TV recently and it appeared to be PWM free. Will take a better camera when I can to the store and do more tests.
5 days later
- Edited
APC75 Some of the other people responding reckon this is PPM but what can be done with the amazon fire-stick to resolve this? I
I don't believe PWM or flicker is the root cause of (at least my) issue. Flicker is usually brought up as a culprit but to date I have never had any real lif evidence that it had anything to do with my symptoms. I know it "sounds" right to suspect it, and maybe it is a cause for some peoples issues, I don't know.
Only color settings have been a solve for me, and a known source of my pain. Which does fit in with the Fire/Roku sticks causing me pain in a display that otherwise didn't. The stick have their own video cards in them, and those video cards can differ in the way they tell the display to generate colors. Unfortunately this is not "fixable" as far as I know.
Also, plasmas are not inherently any better than LED TV's for me. I have a plasma TV in my bedroom, zero issues, I bought a plasma TV for the living room, couldn;t look at it for a few seconds without massive eye pain, replaced it withan LD, and have no problems with that as long as it is on the "Game" video setting, which changes the display color intensity.
I wish Android allowed for ICC profiles but Google has handwaved away the request and does not look interested in implementing it
ensete I know you want to blame "colors" and I don't disagree with you, but "colors" and "flicker" are often the same. If your color settings are wrong, either the card or display will attempt to compensate by using some kind of dithering/interpolation effect. So while "flicker" might not be the right term in all cases, it certainly is a decent descriptor in many of them.
6 days later
Gurm I know you want to blame "colors" and I don't disagree with you, but "colors" and "flicker" are often the same.
Could be, could not be. Thats why I said that flicker does not cause a problem for me. In my specific case a monitor certified as Flicker Free was causing intense pain until I corrected the color problem. Irlen Syndrome is built around this concept of certain people not tolerating certain frequencies of color well
I question the flicker/PWN "diagnosis" because it seems to be the default culprit that jumps into people minds, however I haven't seen any medical studies or cases outside of advanced epilepsy where flickering lights actually cause eye strain or pain. I'm not saying it's NOT flicker or PWM, or that folks haven't found relief by eliminating flicker from their situation, I'm saying that each individual shouldn't be so fast to jump on the "it must be flicker/PWM" train. That could lead to a lot of time spent barking up the wrong tree, and unneeded suffering. An honestly, flickering lights are nothing new, I would be suspicious of a flicking fluorescent bulb causing someone no problems but a flicking screen causing problems.
Once again I am not dismissing anyones claims, I'm just saying we should all keep an open mind on the root cause and not be so laser focused on flicker/PWN/dithering. Lot of folks on here have eliminated all of those factors and still have issue.
- Edited
ensete Flickering fluorescent bulbs and screens with PWM caused my severe problems until recently. But I am trying new cannabinoid medicine because I live in Canada where it is legal. I've already told @degen and a few other people about it. Maybe I should write about it later given I have 4 months of data.
Also my eyes have built up quite a strong resistance to triggers, the best they've been since 6 years ago before I had this problem.
JTL Glad to hear you found some relief. I am a medical marijuana patient in the US, and using MJ does help with the pain after I am triggered and helps me sleep, but it is not a preventative.
Biofeedback and Nuerofeedback have been the best treatments so far, I would say my resistance to triggers have increase roughly 40%, but some light still punch right through that with ease. I continue nuerofeedback treatment and hope to see more benefit as time goes on.
ensete I'm sure that if marijuana became Schedule II or III in the US it would allow for an easier time for scientists to study it, maybe then we can figure out it has such a major effect on myself, etc.
Unfortunately with people like Jeff Sessions in charge of matters related to drug policy I highly doubt it.
3 months later
ensete ok do you know of a stick or modern tablet that will plug into the TV I use and not cause trouble? The tablet I'm currently using is a Tesco Hudl which won't last forever and they've been discontinued. It was a supermarket made tablet but has been surprisingly resilient considering is has been running consistently for 4 years. For clarity I can't use the Hudl screen as it is LED so hurts but no problems plugged into my LCD (pre-LED era) TV.
2 months later
Well my Plasma TV, which i can use without any eye strain whatsoever, now has problems, and I need to find a replacement. This worries me. Plasma is no longer available, so only LED TVs. Many LED TVs now have Android TV built in, but with Android built it also concerns me, will it cause eye strain (like some Android phones do)? So now we have to worry about PWM and graphics driver in TVs as well.
Anyone can use any 2017 Sony LED TVs without eye strain? If yes, can you share the model number.
- Edited
The X850E from Sony's 2017 lineup is pretty good. I wrote about it a bit earlier in this thread. In terms of PQ it is the best non-PWM LED-backlit (and non-OLED) TV available, and it has a VA panel. I have the 65" version but have not used the 75" version which according to Rtings has an IPS panel and so might as well be a different TV. I've looked at it for several hours without issue. The backlight is not that dim even at 0% so I am forced to turn the contrast quite low for extended viewing, to a level that impacts the PQ negatively.
From what I've seen from Rtings reviews the backlight is actually dim in comparison to many other LED-backlit TVs, which must be painful.
I think if you are not sensitive to brightness I would give it a shot.
The Android TV on it is useless it is so slow and clunky. I don't really care about smart TV features but like you I am concerned if Android has any effect on non-Android TV content. Recently it got an update to 7.0 when I wasn't there and I'm not sure how it's going to effect me. I already did a factory reset since the update to address some serious lag in the settings UI so I'm not sure if it's still possible for me to downgrade (if it ever was).
My eyes still can't relax on it 100% like they do on my Panasonic plasma. It's just not the same. It's in a family viewing area in a bright room so it was the best compromise I could think of to replace a pounding headache inducing TV (early LED-backlit LG) that was there previously. Because of that I keep the brightness at 0 and adjust the contrast based on time of day. 65 for daytime and 25-30 for nighttime, which are the lowest levels to retain all the necessary detail in dark scenes.
Thanks, that's a very good point. I do not want to worry about Android TV updating itself to Nougat and causing eye strain. So I have to take Android TV off my list then. Will just go for normal Smart TV, and buy an Android Box. If it causes eye strain, can always remove the box, or replace with another one.