martin Yes.

I went to several eye doctors and got several different forms of glasses and examinations. I never specifically asked about heterophoria, but I was never diagnosed with it.

I'm sure for some people that may be the issue, or fixing that might be enough to drop below the threshold to have symptoms. However, most everybody with this issue has been to countless eye doctors, so I would assume if it was an eye issue it would have been uncovered by some of those thousands of people by now.

I'm not an expert on heterphoria but it seems to be a misalignment of the two eyes when at rest. So I would think simply covering one eye while working on a computer should alleviate the symptoms.

But I feel people should still look into the condition you mentioned if they feel it may benefit them or if those symptoms more closely match their own.

      screenjunky I am writing this because I got serious progress by treating my heterophoria. In combination with glasses that fix shortsightedness in one eye (contributing to eye teaming issues, as the better eye is preferred) I can now use iphones that previously would trigger pain in few seconds. I am also nearing end of my therapy and was working on few macs for couple hours with mild symptoms afterwards. Photo work and video is good, reading the most difficult. I still cant tolerate antialiased fonts though, they seem to really trigger my issue of eye teaming.

      It is possible that I could also have underlying epilepsy, and that it is triggered by spasms in the eye muscles and nerves because of my heterophoria, but two of such rare conditions at once seem unlikely to me.

      I recommend you find a good oprometrist and get checked for heterophoria just to be sure. Eye patch doesnt help, for reasons yet not completely understood, eye teaming defficiencies can influence even one-eye work - I trained accomodation for each eye separately in the beginning, and it was very insufficient.

      If everyone had confirmed heterophoria it would be enough for a medical proof that the systems are somehow bad. However its very unexplored topic and epilepsy would sound more serious and better in pushing for change, unfortunately that might not be the case.

        I will do this EEG test. I'm not in a rush but hopefully My doctor can get me in for one in a few months. I find it interesting because I have usually found things that are above my threshold like my plasma TVs. I own 7 of them. Also I have had success with flicker free OLED which there hasn't been a lot of them. Yotaphone 2 gives me no issues and the Samsung S2 was the same. I feel that DC dimmed OLED will solve problems for some people on this forum. I thought I was onto something with BFI on the Samsung quantum dot but it starts to get to me after awhile. It's probably the best monitor I have used but it has nothing on OLED. I would buy an LG OLED but they are too expensive. I'm interested in all these DC dimmed OLED phones. I think there is six of them now. I just don't want to waste hundreds or thousands of dollars when I bought my current phone for 200. I will post results when I get some.

        a month later

        JTL Interesting read. I think an important part of that is the aversion towards the offending light source described. I wrote about this in another post, and many people here have that same instant aversion towards offending screens. That response can be considered a pre-seizure activity as the brain is now aware that those sources have negative effects, the same way people instantly avoid certain foods after becoming sick because of them.

        What people with bad symptoms of LED strain often describe are similar or almost exactly like pre-seizure symptoms. Face twitching or muscle twitches, brain fog, anxiety or depression, sudden drop in energy, etc.

        You'll also notice a lot of people say they felt "off" after spending time with an offending screen and it can take a day or two recover.

        Just to be clear, having these issues does not mean you will have a physical seizure so I don't want to alarm anyone. In fact, you will probably never have an issue with this in any other aspect of your life and you do not have what is considered "traditional" epilepsy. But these screens seem to cause a similar reaction, although at a lower intensity of symptoms, it is still a similar mechanism. But because they never reach the level of a full seizure, nobody ever goes to see a doctor.

        Also, just to add this probably does not describe everybody with eye strain. I'm sure a segment of the people here may just have untreated eye problems. However, if you have the more severe symptoms and your eyes have been fully tested, it is probably an issue similar to photo sensitive epilepsy.

        --Thanks for posting the article.

        • diop replied to this.
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            screenjunky My definition of eye strain is literally eye pain, eye discomfort, trouble focusing after typically a prolonged period of close-up vision, regardless of the source - a paperback book might give you eye strain after a long enough reading session.

            If that was the only problem, font changes and brightness levels / prescription glasses would have cured most visitors to this site.

            I think this issue is more likely as you mention, the neurological effects of using this modern tech. Fatigue, dizziness, unsteadiness, brain fog - all symptoms that simply did not exist for me prior to 2012, regardless of which device I was using.

            Therefore I point my finger at the technology provoking symptoms out of the more sensitive users. If it is a low-level form of epilepsy, are we all going to be given medication to reduce symptoms, rather than change the offending technology?

                diop are we all going to be given medication to reduce symptoms, rather than change the offending technology?

                Sadly, whatever costs less to who rules. If we keep being a minority, it will be medicaments in the best case.
                I do not see how the technology can change, given than I never met a single person with symptoms similar to mine. We are too few and cannot prove anything (yet).
                The hope is that the evolution of the tech will fix the problem without knowing what the problem was.
                For instance, some people can use their phone on Paranoid Android and not on other OSs, but does the Paranoid Android team know why? Do they even know there are people like us? Not sure.
                I hope I am too negative. I apologize for that.

                    AGI I agree and hope the technology makes that jump.

                    Dithering IIRC is movement of pixels to trick the eyes into seeing more colors, so once displays can display those colors (affordably) dithering won't be needed?

                    Saying this the latest iMac Pro should have a professional-grade panel, but they force dithering on all OS X installs.

                        diop Dithering seems to turn up all the time in places its not needed, honestly I doubt the genie is going back in the bottle on this one.

                          diop If you were to test positive during an EEG, then they would probably prescribe medicine. I am obviously not a doctor so don't take my advice blindly, but I would suggest not going down that route. It makes no sense for someone to have to take powerful medicine for life just to work at a computer. Not only that, the medicine will likely lead to full out epilepsy, as the drugs are basically neurological depressants, which means that after prolonged use, the brain will rebound when the drugs are not present and be worse than when you started them. But this is common with almost medications that block something.

                          However, I think I have solution that might work with the help of the people on this board. I'm going to make a fresh thread about it but it boils down to people with this issue acting as a block and pressuring Intel and Nvidia to provide us some way to turn of this processing like dithering and other smoothing tricks. It's a very small demand and we should be able to get it, even if it is just or testing purposes.

                          It seems manufacturers already understand that flicker is bad, and they are working on that, so there is probably no need to focus on that as they already know. For example, LG has an "eyecare" mode on their TV's so obviously these companies know their screens are bothersome, even just for watching TV at at distant.

                          So flickering should be solved or at least addressed. But the dithering and other processing still needs to be addressed. I think if we act as a block, we should be able to get Intel or Nvidia to put out some sort of developer kit with options to turn off those things to test if it makes the symptoms go away.

                          They may even welcome it because they know that their screens are causing eye problems, so having people test it for them and provide feedback saves them money of having to do it themselves.

                              screenjunky I agree I wouldn't take medicine if offered, the notion to have to take anything to use computers is ludicrous. Plus as you say, there are side-effects and other negatives (cost, addiction).

                              I agree that pressure needs to be made on these companies. Flaming forums, setting up a Reddit for this community, branching out to Instagram, Youtube. This site and information needs to be everywhere. Not to scaremonger people, but to allow them to make informed decisions and maybe help them to understand why they are getting headaches when using their new Macbook/iPhone etc.

                              I don't think the fixes we want are that difficult to introduce either. Just put an advanced option somewhere in W10/Nvidia Control panel and in Games consoles to disable the rendering/dithering, and simply state this could have a negative effect on image quality, just like 'Game Mode' on TV's. Win/Win, people that don't need it will never have to change anything, and those that need to simply dig into the menu's and switch it off.

                                That would be great!

                                I got one and was negative. I am very sensitive to screens though especially PWM and get crazy prolonged dizziness and detached state from it.

                                Did anyone else develop this as a post viral thing? I always had some sensitivity to screens but it really got crazy after getting EBV in my 30s.

                                There are other things that can have photosensitivity reactions without being epilepsy, such as fibromyalgia, CFS, migraine, some autoimmune diseases, post concussion syndromes...

                                No matter what the reason, I think there are many groups in society that can have issues with these technologies so solving them at the technical end rather than the medical side would be great.

                                  noigmn

                                  I can kind of relate to this. I have a so far undiagnosed problem with my immune system, I develop new allergies extremely rapidly, and to pretty much anything I get exposed to orally. Three of these allergies (Sunflower oil, Coffee, Curcumin) greatly worsen my sensitivity to screens, such that monitors that I can normally use fine become unusable. I presume these allergens are getting into my brain, evoking an inflammatory immune response, and thus making me more prone to headaches.

                                  Given this, seems plausible that your EBV exposure has for some reason increased the level of inflammation in your brain too.

                                      I have long suspected our condition is related to epilepsy. I'm going to get this test

                                      22 days later

                                      Sorry to bump this, but I've been reading a lot about dithering online and found this from somebody's site.
                                      Article: https://smerity.com/articles/2013/dithering.html

                                      "Temporal Dithering

                                      You can also alternate quickly between two colors to end up with what appears to be the average of the two. This is referred to as temporal dithering. You'll most commonly find temporal dithering in hardware, specifically to improve the appearance of an image on a sub-par television or monitor display.

                                      I've made an example of dithering using frame rate control but I preface it with the warning that it may be unsafe for those with epilepsy. If you're still happy that it won't impact you medically and you don't mind your CPU bursting into flames, click here."

                                      I clicked the link on the page, and wouldn't advise anybody to unless you're peeking out of the corner of your eye and not straight at the screen, it is a flicker+strobe fest! 😮

                                      Why would he ask for people to be cautious viewing his test when this exact method of displaying colors is used on our computers right now? Also from Wiki "Dithering takes advantage of the human eye's tendency to "mix" two colors in close proximity to one another."

                                      • AGI replied to this.
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                                        Thanks for the nice article. It helps understanding dithering I know nothing about.

                                        diop Why would he ask for people to be cautious

                                        I think the guy just meant to emphasize how strong the effects of dithering can be, but did not intend to make any medical statement. I red similar warnings multiple times at art exhibitions where strobing lights were employed.

                                        It should not be difficult to confirm whether dithering triggers epileptic seizures, should it? Pick a bunch of people affected by the pathology, let them play with a modern electronic toy and see what happens. Maybe someone does not want to find out?
                                        When I lived in the States I heard jokes about California, that every product from there comes with a warning, like, this could cause cancer, etc. etc. I have not read anything on the backside of iPhones :-)

                                          100% believe that this could be a symptom of some sort of mild epilepsy and have thought that for years. I've been suffering from this since 2008 after a head injury. I've had the same symptoms as everyone else: extreme brain fog and confusion, inability to focus, headaches, etc.

                                          Interestingly I've built up a tolerance to all my devices by just using them every day for years. I do use f.lux on my laptop and a similar app on my phone, but my TV was unbearable for a few months and I gradually desensitized myself to it.

                                          What really kills me and has drastically altered my life's course is fluorescent lighting. I can't be under them for longer than 10 minutes without these epileptic symptoms. I went to law school in the early 2010s and barely passed because all of my classrooms had fluorescent lighting. When I graduated I was terrified to realize that all of the courtrooms have them as well.

                                          I've been fortunate to be able to control the lighting in my office and whenever something involves going to court I just send another attorney to cover for me. I also can't go into malls or box stores like Best Buy or Walmart or Target. It's a pain in the ass but I've managed and don't really think about it at this point. I would have loved to have been a courtroom litigator but it's not in the cards.

                                          I hadn't checked up on this condition in a few years. Very saddened to see we haven't made much progress on it as far as treatments. But I'd bet if I went to Target for an hour and then went and got an EEG I'd absolutely test positive. Might have to schedule one. The question is... what then? Wish there was a less intense epilepsy medication that would help me out.

                                            4 days later

                                            Seagull My sister has systemic mastocytosis, but that isn't meant to run in the family. It took them 10 years to diagnose her and she had pretty obvious autoimmune symptoms. Tick that and other histamine related disorders off the list if you haven't yet. Screens could be a trigger for histamine release.

                                            I don't have many allergies, but I do find high histamine foods give more fuel to the symptoms (beer or wine especially). And I have trouble processing caffeine. It causes psychodelic effects, sore stomach and vomiting after about half an hour (my body more or less reacts like it is a poison).

                                              dev