Hello all, I've been a Windows 7 user for the past 10 years and with it reaching it's end of life come early next year I've had to decide what OS I will be moving to. I'm not a huge fan of Windows 10 with all the telemetry it does, so I've decided what I'm going to do is move to Linux as my main everyday OS, and dual boot Windows 10 for gaming only. I've always disabled Cleartype in Windows as I preferred the sharp single pixel width of fonts such as Arial, Verdana, etc. I do keep "font smoothing" on though which does apply some antialising to particular fonts such as the UI font (Segoe UI) and various others. Having Cleartype disabled though does affect some websites that have fonts that were definitely designed with Cleartype in mind. For example, the "New" reddit font renders really poorly without Cleartype. Luckily most websites I visit still look fine without Cleartype. So now on to where my eye strain started. After playing around in the various Linux distros to see which desktop environment was most comfortable for me, I ended up choosing Xubuntu and installed that. One of the first things I had to do was mess with the font settings, as I've found out I'm super sensitive to RGB subpixel rendering which seems to be enabled by default on all the distros I tried. I can see the color fringes on all small fonts and get almost immediate eyestrain with it enabled. After switching to only grayscale anti-aliasing and turning font hinting from Slight to Full I really liked how the fonts were rendering. Sharp and clean. After a few hours though is when I started to notice eyestrain and a headache coming on. When I jumped back over to Windows the problem immediately subsided. So I decided to dig deep into the various font settings I could try in Linux. First I calibrated my display in both Linux and Windows with my i1 Display Pro to D65, 2.2 gamma, at a monitor brightness of 120 cd/m2. This was to rule out the gamma as possibly being the culprit of the eyestrain which I know can cause it. I then installed the MS fonts to see if it's just the font type I'm more used to. I set Segoe UI as my system font and went into Firefox and set the defaults to the same as Windows (Arial, Times New Roman, Courier New). The eyestrain remained. Even setting particular fonts in fontconfig (Arial, Verdana, etc) to not use any anti-aliasing was still giving me eye strain. I went a step further and installed the Freetype Infinality patches that have "Windows like" settings. No change. Still got eyestrain. It's like there is something imperceptible going on that's causing my eyestrain. I than started looking for other possible sources of the problem such as the highly talked about dithering. I'm not even sure what exactly it is, or if it even affects my particular issue with fonts? I tried disabling it in Nvidia X Server Settings, but the setting doesn't seem to stick. After I close and reopen Nvidia Settings, it gets set back to Enabled. So after trying everything I could think of, I decided to just stop fiddling with it, as the eyestrain was getting pretty bad at this point. But now I'm starting to wonder if the problem is psychological. Maybe I just need to toughen up and push through the eye strain in Linux for a week and my eyes/brain will adjust. Similar to the effect when you get a new stronger prescription of eyeglasses and life sucks for a few days until you get used to them. Maybe that's all the issue is since I've been looking at the same fonts/rendering in Windows for the last decade. And if that does happen to be the case, I'm wondering if I'd get eyestrain when jumping back to Windows? My main monitor is a 27" 1920x1080 IPS 60hz display. I've been meaning to upgrade to a 27" 1440p@144hz panel for a while now. I know that the increased DPI would improve the font rendering somewhat. Obviously jumping to 4K would be even better as far as font rendering goes. But since I game, I don't want to spend a fortune on GPU(s) that can push high framerates at 4K. It's definitely a weird phenomenon I'm going through with this, as I've NEVER had issue with eye strain using my PC. I'm curious if anyone else has had this happen to them when switching operating systems? Thanks for anyone taking the time to read this, and I'm happy to hear any opinions/thoughts on this issue. EDIT: The more I read about dithering, the more I'm wondering if it IS the problem I'm having. I got to figure out why I can't seem to be able to disable it in Nvidia Settings.

Wallboy Hi there, welcome. I have tested out Linux distros for years. The main reason I never switched to Linux was due to the eye strain. I had issues as far back as 2007, when testing out distros I would notice the display seemed a bit 'harsher' compared to (then) Windows XP. In hindsight I got the same symptoms that I get now with any OS using dithering. After 10 minutes eyes feel heavy and something just feels 'wrong' about the output. Before I discovered this forum, "What's wrong with me?" came to mind a lot. If this forum didn't exist and nobody else had these symptoms, at that point I would consider something psychologically wrong with me. Thank god there is a community here, we're not the ones with the problem. Dithering in a nutshell is the rapid (very rapid) adjustment of adjacent color values to simulate the color in-between which cannot ordinarily be displayed. So when we use any OS with dither (specifically temporal dithering) every pixel is changing color values constantly. IMO this constant noise on the screen, albeit not always noticable, is affecting us. I remember as a kid staring at white noise on a TV (hey, it was the 80's and no world wide web 🙂) and while I didn't get headaches from it, I instinctively knew I couldn't watch that for hours. Same with dithering, I don't think it's healthy for that type of stimulus to be on our screens. Obviously by nature screens have a level of flicker (I always avoided 60hz CRT's and went to 75hz+) but it never caused the severe reactions that I get in this decade. I would get an eye test just to rule out any other issue, but things such as dithering and the effects, are a very new idea, not recognised by any official authority as bad, and also no user-controllable way to disable (yet).

So I found a possible bug with the Nvidia X Server Settings application. On my system I if I set Dithering to Disabled and then save the .nvidia-settings-rc file to /home, it doesn't set the Dithering option correctly. I had to open the file and for each line that said "Dithering=0" change it to "Dithering=2". 0 = Auto which usually means enabled. 1 = Enabled. 2 = Disabled. I then added the following command to my startup: "nvidia-settings --load-config-only". Logged out and back in and than ran the following command: "nvidia-settings -q CurrentDithering". The result now shows dithering is definitely disabled. You can also run the command "nvidia-settings -q Dithering" to make sure the value is 2 (for Disabled). Now when I open Nvidia X Server Settings, the setting remains on Disabled. Now as far as did it fix my issue? It's too late for me to test right now for a prolonged session, so I'll test tomorrow when I wake up and see if it helps.

Something I don't understand IF dithering is the issue...is why I can use recent Ubuntu on very old laptops like 10+ years old...with no strain...but it strains in minutes on anything new. Even cheap new things with low resolution TN screens which SHOULD eliminate the possibility that its an issue with IPS or hish res etc. Is the old igpu i915 or whatever everything had back then not capable of dithering? Also why do old iPads on old iOS and iPhone 4s etc not dither (or presumably since they dont hurt and are ips) It would be pretty great if an "off" setting helped because I would love to use Ubuntu on new stuff. Shame the intel gpu integrated doesnt have an off switch....but if I had to get an Nvidia laptop that would work id would be better off than now. I've not tried Windows very much because anything I have got with Windows 10 to try strained...but you and some others say its NOT straining them. (or maybe you meant only Windows 7). I also wonder if its not psychological since there is always an outlier for every factor that does or doesn't hurt....at least one example...pwm, led, whatever...but who knows.

vaz Dithering requires changing pixels every frame. Older lcd monitors had such slow pixel response times that they might not be able to respond fast enough to actually display any dithering.

vaz I read on the Intel forums that the Windows drivers will enable dithering on 8bit and above displays. Your old display is probably a 6bit and maybe Ubuntu recognises this and disables dithering. I have used Windows 10 in the last year on a 2012 laptop and it was perfect. When checking the driver in use I think it was using the same version supplied by OEM (2012 version) and not using a 2015> driver. So maybe it's just drivers, maybe it's Windows 10, without seperating it all (video output vs driver vs OS) - it's hard to determine where the 'point of failure' is. How are you with games consoles/smart tv's? This isn't just an issue with PC's for me and I can't use Nintendo Switch for more than minutes. Also iPhone 4 was fine for me, that had an LED display and I'm using a 2019 LED monitor now, so at least for me it's not LED. Also it isn't necessarily eye strain thats the worst symptom for me (my eyes don't physically strain) it's neurological. I feel spaced out/over-focused on the screen.

diop I read on the Intel forums that the Windows drivers will enable dithering on 8bit and above displays. Your old display is probably a 6bit and maybe Ubuntu recognises this and disables dithering. I don't think this is it because even most modern laptops, except high end ones, are 6+2, and I have tried new ones and new displays in moderately old laptops and those displays were 6+2 for sure. So if dithering is my pain it's not because it doesn't show up on under 8-bit panels. I broke out the Xbox 360 after not playing for a year, unrelated to eyestrain, and it was fine on a TN/LED flat panel TV. I don't have a new TV to test it on and I don't watch TV as a habit. I don't like looking at modern TVs in shops and people's homes because they have them on super bright color enhancement whatever modes always and I just find it noxious more than some neurological reaction, so I don't know how they would be with regular use and reasonable settings. I don't feel spaced out. My neck and face and back of head get tight and tingly in as short as a few minutes, and that progresses into a headache with hours. It's like something is making me tense around face and head. Contrast that with staring at super old stuff for 12 hours with no problems at all...not even a twinge.

Seagull Old TN panels from 2005-2010 etc were slower than current IPS panels? Current TN stuff is single digit ms and IPS is 30ish. Hard to believe an old TN is slower when TN has always been more responsive, and therefore that's why it wouldn't show dithering.

So I've had some time today to test if dithering was the issue for me, and it doesn't seem like it. I'm still getting eyestrain. So I'm just going to assume my eyes need to adjust to the new font rendering. When you get a new prescription of eyeglasses is the only way I can describe this eyestrain phenomenon. Everything is more clear, but your eyes strain for the first few days. One thing I did was download Redshift to adjust the color temperature to something really warm like 4500K. It does seem to take the edge off the "intensity" of the strain. Each day I'm going to increase it by 100K until I'm back at my calibrated 6500K, and hopefully by then everything will be Ok. And if not, then there must be something definitely going on differently in Linux then Windows. EDIT: Hour and half later using Redshift, and it's been a drastic improvement in my eyestrain.

vaz 15ms is a fairly common response time for old TN, particularly on laptops which tended to be a bit worse. On a 60hz monitor that's an entire frame. I had a TN monitor bought 2001 with a 40ms response time, scrolling around the map on RTS games all I'd see is a grey blur.

vaz I don't feel spaced out. My neck and face and back of head get tight and tingly in as short as a few minutes, and that progresses into a headache with hours. It's like something is making me tense around face and head. Contrast that with staring at super old stuff for 12 hours with no problems at all...not even a twinge. It's a mystery, isn't it? I don't have the symptoms you're getting but it's still a direct result of using new tech. I've got two machines at my desk, an Acer 2010 tower and Intel 2018 NUC - HDMI cable going into monitor. 2010 machine is fine all day, no ill effects. 2018 NUC, within 20 minutes (same cable, same monitor) I get symptoms (heavy eyes, dilated pupils, brain fog), It felt like my eyes were forced open and wasn't blinking as much. When I used it extensively (over 8 hours a day for two weeks) and then switched back to my 2010 machine, I immediately felt the physical and mental relief. I forced myself to use the NUC for that long to rule out placebo and to see how bad it could make me feel, also if I could get myself through it by using it all the time. My experience is nope. You might get more accustomed to the symptoms, but it's still affecting you in some way.

Eyestrain when switching from Windows to Linux

vaz

diop My eyes are dry a lot anyway and can be very dry with or without screen use...but paying attention to that hasn't mattered. I can still be on old screen all way with super dry eyes and no symptoms. I wish I could just have a modern laptop/OS combo of some sort that could be reproduced so I could get a couple.

vaz

Wallboy So I've had some time today to test if dithering was the issue for me, and it doesn't seem like it. I'm still getting eyestrain. So I'm just going to assume my eyes need to adjust to the new font rendering.

Hang on...are you saying you definitively shut off dithering on linux? If you are going by just flipping those config switches that doesn't prove its on or off.

Wallboy

vaz

You're right, I have no idea how to check. All I do know like I said is it didn't make a difference to my eyestrain one way or another flipping it to off. I have no idea how to go about actually checking. Need like a high speed camera or something?

JTL

Well disabling it in the Nvidia X Server Settings didn't make any difference to my eyestrain. With it showing set as "Disabled" in both the GUI and command line, I was still getting eyestrain. However I can't confirm if it's actually off.

It's like everything in Linux is so intense on my eyes. Even though my i1 Display Pro says everything is nicely calibrated, and in fact both Windows and Linux DO look the same in their calibrations, it's just something weird going on that is causing eyestrain in Linux. I did read dithering is supposed to "fake" 10-bit on 8-bit displays, which might explain the weird "intensity" of color I'm seeing.

Using Redshift for the time being to drop the color temp to 4500K helped a HUGE amount.

vaz

diop I read on the Intel forums that the Windows drivers will enable dithering on 8bit and above displays. Your old display is probably a 6bit and maybe Ubuntu recognises this and disables dithering.

I'd like to address this again...what driver was ok for you and A. How do I get that and set it (don't even have Windows 10 nor know how to use it honestly as I moved off in the XP days, and B. Are you saying if I put Windows 10 and that old driver on say a 2015 Asus laptop etc with Intel 5500 that it will NOT dither because it has a 6bit panel?

diop

vaz I'd like to address this again...what driver was ok for you and A. How do I get that and set it (don't even have Windows 10 nor know how to use it honestly as I moved off in the XP days, and B. Are you saying if I put Windows 10 and that old driver on say a 2015 Asus laptop etc with Intel 5500 that it will NOT dither because it has a 6bit panel?

That Intel forum info (dithering on 8bpc+) is when using the latest drivers.

The trouble is, AFAIK, is Windows 10 will not run older XP/7 drivers. I think 8.1 drivers work on W10 but I may be mistaken. OTOH, any hardware made in say 2015 is only going to have 2015 drivers and above.

If the monitor is genuinely detected as 6-bit, I am led to believe that no dithering will be enabled by the Intel driver.

My daily driver and usable machine right now is a 2010 W7 desktop (using a Feb 2010 driver) 🙂.

vaz

diop Oh I thought you said you used Windows 10 on recent hardware and it was fine.

I still don't believe what they claim about no dithering on 6-bit because MOST laptop panels...even on new devices...are 6+2. Only higher end stuff is 8bit. And I have tried 250 dollar WalMart Pentium Windows 10 laptops with Intel 610 etc and they strain same as any. Those have visibly low quality panels, TN, and cannot be 8bit....or I am wrong, they don't enable dithering on low quality <8bit panels (which in itself confuses me as those would need dithering MORE to look good than a higher bit panel), and that simply means dithering isn't an issue and we are back to square one.

JTL

Wallboy So I've had some time today to test if dithering was the issue for me, and it doesn't seem like it

How did you determine this?

JTL

Wallboy Well disabling it in the Nvidia X Server Settings didn't make any difference to my eyestrain. With it showing set as "Disabled" in both the GUI and command line, I was still getting eyestrain. However I can't confirm if it's actually off.

It's unknown if the dithering options actually work (empirical testing is difficult, not impossible. I probably could do it if I had some certain hardware I don't have 😐)

What GPU are you using?

Wallboy

JTL

Nvidia 970 GTX

Just spent a few hours in Linux with Redshift enabled and it's still bothering my eyes enough now that I had to go back to Windows. Uggh this is so frustrating. Has anyone tested a high refresh rate (144hz+) monitor to see if it helps?

JTL

Wallboy Nvidia 970 GTX

That's a suspected "bad" GPU, and some revisions of the GTX 970 might have dithering always enabled, but that is weird.

JTL

Wallboy If you're still here I have something with checking VBIOS versions you might want to try.

Wallboy

JTL

But wouldn't I be experiencing eyestrain in Windows as well then?

JTL

Wallboy Unless something has changed with the NVIDIA drivers or VBIOS in the past year or two, yes.

So I can't say I'm certain.

Wallboy

I just went back to the Nouveau driver and disabled dithering through xrandr, and made a .xprofile in my HOME folder to run the commands to disable it on Login for both my displays:

xrandr --output HDMI-1 --set "dithering mode" "off" xrandr --output DVI-I-1 --set "dithering mode" "off"

and I logged out and logged back and I THINK dithering might be disabled now using this opensource driver. I'm not getting any strain so far. I can focus on things without my head pounding.

Not going to say I found a solution for Nvidia just yet. I'm not prone to placebo type effects, but we'll see after a few hours...

It's just too bad this driver runs like crap compared to the proprietary.

Wallboy

Nouveau driver + disabling dithering in it has FIXED the problem for me without question. Everything now feels "still" and calm. No more of that nearly imperceptible shimmering or intensity to the color.

Something must definitely be broken with the proprietary Nvidia drivers. When I open nvidia-settings and change to disable dithering, as soon as I close nvidia-settings it saves the .nvidia-settings-rc with dithering re-enabled again. So I'm pretty damn sure something is borked. I'm gonna go digging in the nvidia-settings source code to see if I can figure it out.

Can't believe I spent so long fussing with the font settings when they weren't the problem at all. I should have known when I was still getting eyestrain watching Twitch/Youtube videos.

So PLEASE, whoever is in a similar situation as mine with Linux + Nvidia. Try the Nouveau driver and disable dithering through that. And use the commands in my above post in a .xprofile file for persistence across reboots. Replace HDMI-1, etc with your correct connected display which you can see when you run the command: xrandr --props. You can than check with the same command afterwards to see if it's disabled.

KM

Wallboy I had a similar experience some time ago with my Quadro NVS 295. The official proprietary driver introduced some eye strain, even though dithering was disabled in the driver program. Nouveau, much better. However, there was still some small eye strain that was just not there in Windows 7. Maybe one day we can reveal the differences with a capture card. I'm not sure if temporal dithering is enabled on my card by default since xrandr would only say "auto" instead of on or off. This is different for different cards. I tend to think the driver itself is easier on the eyes, not the dithering options. May be worth a try to turn dynamic dithering on and see if the eye strain is coming back or not.

diop

Wallboy Nouveau driver + disabling dithering in it has FIXED the problem for me without question. Everything now feels "still" and calm. No more of that nearly imperceptible shimmering or intensity to the color.

Would you say it's turned your machine from unusable to usable? It may be an idea to use it for some time (a week or two) to be sure it's good for long-term use.

@Gleb Had similar issues using his Intel Mac and found a way to disable dithering, it then became usable and much more comfortable.

This is adding to the theory that the issue is temporal dithering.

The bad side to all this is gamers and companies think temporal dithering is a good idea, almost essential, because nobody in 2019 wants to see banding 😐.

kammerer

@Wallboy What Xubuntu version do you use? Which version of driver?

Wallboy

kammerer

Xubuntu Desktop 19.10. And I'm using the Nouveau driver you can select in the Software & Updates dialog under "Additional Drivers": "Using X.Org X Server -- Nouveau display driver from xserver-xorg-video-nouveau (open source)"

Wallboy

diop

Yes it's usable now. I will for sure take a week or two with it like this to really make sure it's all good. Their are a few downsides to this driver though such as it doesn't feel like it's as good performance. UI isn't quite as snappy, mouse kind of lags in Firefox when HW rendering is force enabled. Also the fan always spins now since I'm guessing the proprietary driver is the only one that can control the "Fan Stop" mode.

But for the next week, I'm not messing with it anymore. My head feels like it's been in a microwave for the last week. Gotta let the eyes/brain repair.

kammerer

Did anybody try to shoot slo-mo video and compare good/bad OS? (Many of recent smartphones support such feature with 240fps)

Update: it's maybe worth to extract frames from each video and compare serial frames within same video

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