diop Thanks for the reply @diop. Placebo is such a difficult thing to account for, but these were entirely new symptoms to me - I was probably expecting a migraine or at least a nauseus headache (which I did have in the morning) and initially I hadn't even thought to connect the dots between the temporal dithering and these surreal experiences.

However after a bit of reading about them potentially being a mild form of epilepsy it made me think that perhaps they're related, and having since read @screenjunky's post regarding epilepsy I'm starting to wonder if there is perhaps a strong link here:

https://ledstrain.org/d/657-everyone-here-needs-to-get-an-eeg-test-for-epilepsy

  • diop replied to this.

      si_edgey How do you react to PWM or flash photography/flashing lights in general?

      Temporal dithering at the pixel level is "technically" flicker. If you were to view one pixel over your entire screen, it would flash between the value below and above the target colour extremely quickly. Different dither algorithms can produce different results, and this is happening to all pixels on our desktops. It's like the modern equivalent to white noise on an old CRT TV. You couldn't stare at that for more than a few minutes (I certainly didn't stare at it more than 10 minutes back in the day while tuning an analogue TV (makes me feel old!).

      There is also a dithering patent that states that due to how the dither algorithm works by default and how 60hz monitors refresh, it could be interacting and creating a pseudo-15hz flicker.

      Right now I guess a driver-less solution is the most comfortable way to go, but as consumers we should just be able to buy these devices off the shelf without problems (like we all used to back in the day).

      Hopefully 10-bit displays come soon so dithering is no longer needed (or certainly not temporal dithering).

          diop Will true 10 bit panels lead to 10 bit plus FRC displays becoming the norm? I mean if GPUs already compute colour as a floating point and round to the nearest colour that can be displayed (e.g. 6+2 bit, 8 + 2 bit lists of colours displayable), it seems trivial to switch the list of display colours to 10 bit + FRC.

          • JTL replied to this.

              Edward Will true 10 bit panels lead to 10 bit plus FRC displays becoming the norm?

              It's quite possible

              • diop replied to this.

                  JTL I just hope at that point dithering doesn't remain in order to simulate a >12bit color range instead.

                      diop

                      Its possible at that point we wouldn't be affected as the change in colour would be so slight.

                        diop JTL I just hope at that point dithering doesn't remain in order to simulate a >12bit color range instead.

                        The point I was trying to make is 10-bit color support for actually using it with the OS and applications can be quite complex. There are issues if the GPU "supports" it (some GPUs don't support it on purpose so you get a more expensive model), the OS in use and it's configuration, the monitor and if it does 8+2 bit "dithering" itself, etc.

                          10 days later

                          I tried the latest consumer Windows 10 yesterday and felt sick after a while. Burning eyes, no joy. I think Windows 10 is a dead end, and has been since 2016's "anniversary" edition.

                          I think when I started a full-screen game, the eye-strain-inducing video output disappeared or at least got minimized. But the desktop itself including all browsers is not usable at all. And the eye strain persists for hours.

                          a month later

                          diop I guess I have always had a slight sensitivity from flickering lights - for example with noticeable flickering of a flourescent light I would often develop a migraine. And I have had migraines occasionally since I was a little kid, but they were extremely rare before whereas for the last 8 years before finding a working setup they would be near-continuous, to the point of ruining my life - I'm sure many people here have a similar story.

                          I'm starting to get concerned about not being able to update beyond Windows 10 ver 1511 as already most new Adobe software doesn't work with this version, and I'm sure other software I teach for a living will soon stop working with it too.

                          So I'm on the hunt for a solution again! I can't believe I'm over 8 years in now and still there is no solution to this problem, particularly on Macbooks (which would be much better to use for my work). Just glad I at least have one portable machine I can use...

                              si_edgey came across this recently as a piece of software required net framework 4.7, which is only supported on 1607 and above.

                                3 years later

                                si_edgey I’ve had exactly that experience you’re describing after looking at an epilepsy pattern that was posted on this site somewhere. Intense deja vu followed by surreal feelings and then symptoms mimicking a panic attack. I was “brain dead” and groggy the next day. This is really illuminating. I wonder if there’s a medication we can take for this?

                                    Web Did you ever see a neurologist? I never did, but you can get a 24 hour EEG and go throughout your day (go to Target etc). Epilepsy medications can be rough -- and for a (possibly) "mild" form of epilepsy, a clinician may not prescribe it.

                                    • Web replied to this.

                                        si_edgey So yesterday I decided to upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909

                                        Never, ever, ever update from a working setup. Ever.

                                        If you have no choice to update, always always always do a full system image prior to updating so you can rollback to a known good state

                                            a month later

                                            ryans I haven’t yet but it’s on the schedule for this year. I wonder if migraine medications would work?

                                              ensete On my home NUC I was on Windows 8.1 and was a good setup. But now that 8.1 as stopped to receive new updates, including security updates, I had to upgrade to Win10. Win 10 22h2 is bad to the eyes. Fast strain.

                                              My work computer is Windows 10 Enterprise 21h2 and is fine to my eyes. Using with a HP monitor on work, and using brightness on 10% and cutting blue and green is fine for my eyes. Altough letters are somehow blurry, but no pain. I will try and use the work laptop on my home monitor Dell U2410.

                                              Maybe I can install Windows 10 Enterprise 21h2 on my home PC, and see if it works.

                                                  tfouto Try your work laptop with the Dell monitor first. Then if you are ok, install the same OS. If you want, you can try the W10 2021 LTSC, it's based on 21H2!

                                                      tfouto Win 10 22h2 is bad to the eyes. Fast strain.

                                                      What the heck did MS do to make it so bad 🙁

                                                        You don't need to stop using 8.1 if you liked it.. "security updates" don't matter that much if you are behind a router and aren't in the habit of running random .exe files strangers give you.

                                                          Sunspark well, the browsers aren't updated to. So just surfing the web is enough to compromise the system.

                                                              dev