Sunspark Thanks for the info.

I checked the technical info and the motherboard the NUC8 uses doesn’t have a genuine HDMI header on the motherboard, it is a DisplayPort header with a built in converter to HDMI. There is only 1 HDMI port on the NUC8 with no other display ports.

I have never been able to use DP comfortably, even on a sky lake Lenovo USFF machine I have. I installed W7 with the earliest Lenovo supported driver I could find, however I still had symptoms. I suspect the VBIOS is doing something to the DP signal or maybe auto enabling dithering.

    Sunspark Is this the enough?

    SMBIOSBIOSVersion
    RYBDWi35.86A.0246.2015.0309.1355

        diop I used Edge Chromium on 2004 the first day and did not have a good experience. Now I use Edge Legacy (the Edge that comes with 2004), and it seems to be much better.

            KM And the rest of the OS how is it?

            • KM replied to this.

                tfouto Too early to judge. The desktop and native programs, they don't seem that bad at least. But today I played a game, "Into the Breach", and had to uninstall it because it was causing heavy eye strain over time (despite having little moving elements). So I think at least the software that's running on the OS is not magically fixed, and we can't expect every browser or game to run without trouble.

                    tfouto Yes, it is thank you very much. I am happy to know that we both have the same version. The vbios change increment from v1038 to v1039 happened between 0249 and 0348 (no releases in-between those two). I did ask Intel years ago what the difference between 1038 and 1039 was, but they didn't know. I've always wanted to look and see, but never did. It's interesting because 0348 was listed as a version that worked well with Hackintosh involving certain functions and graphics support and the other versions not as well but 0348 is also a version that has audio issues with Windows 7 (but does not affect 8.1 or 10) in the changelog. Yes, our NUCs can be used with MacOS too. Some assembly required.

                    The Hackintosh changelog for El Capitan states:

                    0353: Same shutdown issue as 352. May require "FixShutdown" to be selected in Clover Configurator (ACPI screen) as well as the BIOS settings at the link below.
0352: When you shut down, the NUC turns off, but 5 seconds later it starts up again. Try these settings to fix shutdown.
0348: Perhaps the best choice for now. The only noticeable fix in 0350 is the resolution of the Visual BIOS screens, but the shutdown behavior isn't worth it.
0246: Worked OK, but on the 5i7RYH the graphics were improved by upgrading to 0348.

                    No description of what "graphics improvement" was in the changelog, but there was something in MacOS.

                      I am trying it too.
                      I've just completed a new clean installation and the first impression is better than 1909 but worst than 1809. Now, i am trying to install the last AMD driver because now i am using the WDDM 2.6 (1903 / 1909), let's see if i can activate the WDDM 2.7.

                      Edit 05/06: I've used the new setup with WDDM 2.6 for 2/3 h and even if the images/text seem very clear, I felt bad! So it's really different from the 1909 where I wasn't even able to look at the desktop but it's still not ok for me.
                      Tonight I will test it again with the last AMD driver and WDDM 2.7. Then I will try it with a different monitor and maybe I can try also an Nvidia GPU! I want to buy another SSD and install on it W10 1709 and see if I am still ok with it because I am not sure anymore 🙁

                      I'm still using the XPS 9560 (Intel HD 630 / Nvidia GTX 1050 / FHD) setup mentioned in the original post without issue - it's like looking at a piece of paper for me, the best experience I've had with Windows in years. I can work on it all day in 2004 without any symptoms, using the old graphics drivers that are installed. I haven't tried updating them, and probably won't (even if it would be handy for diagnosis purposes).

                      However I've been experimenting with the new XPS 9500 I have just received (Intel UHD / Nvidia GTX 1650 / FHD), after updating it to 2004. Its needs more investigation but preliminary signs are not perfect.

                      This throws up some interesting questions, like why the XPS 9560 would give migraine symptoms in 30 minutes of use with 1909, but the same graphics hardware and drivers allow me to use 2004 all day? And is it the hardware or the drivers in new machines that are the problem, if Windows isn't?

                      As usual, this issue continues to baffle. Very glad I have an up-to-date, working setup though.

                        si_edgey Can you do the other way around? Install the drivers on 9500 that you have on 9560? Install old NVidia and Intel drivers on 9500?

                        Btw do your symptoms also are eye strain or just nausea/migraine? Are you affected by brigtness?

                            tfouto I agree. You should try this and leave the 9560 with that working setup! 🙂

                            For me, it was eye strain and dizziness. Tomorrow I will update this post with the first impression with the WDDM 2.7 vs 2.6 but I don't think it can change the result..

                                tfouto I'm pretty sure Intel HD drivers will work on UHD hardware (7th gen vs 10th gen hardware), I'm not sure about the Nvidia ones though - perhaps they're worth a try.

                                My symptoms start with eye strain (dry heavy eyes, pain in left eye) before developing into nausea and ultimately migraine.

                                  Lauda89 my symptoms are eye strain. Nothing else. And the pain is very physical. When I am really bad i also develop light sensitivity. All light becomes harsh. But i usually dont have náusea, Headache, dizziness, etc.

                                      tfouto If you cant install nvidia try with Intel older version. Maybe that helps. Next you can try to disable Nvidia driver.

                                        On this note @Slacor has just added the User Bio feature back in - this is really handy for writing your symptoms and triggers for quick reference by others. If you hover over my username you'll see what I mean - really helpful when reading replies from people because they're only really relevant if they have similar symptoms and triggers to you.

                                        As for drivers, I think you guys are right, I'll experiment with older drivers and configs on the 9500 in W10 v2004 before returning it. Just wish I didn't have to trigger such severe symptoms to experiment - if only there was a test that could be run so we know exactly what's going on. @Seagull seems to be making good progress with this though, maybe one day we'll have a reliable system for testing for dithering and PWM in advance of getting sick!

                                          si_edgey This throws up some interesting questions, like why the XPS 9560 would give migraine symptoms in 30 minutes of use with 1909, but the same graphics hardware and drivers allow me to use 2004 all day? And is it the hardware or the drivers in new machines that are the problem, if Windows isn't?

                                          I suspect it's a bit of both. 2004 to my eyes definitely looked more comfortable. Like others mentioned, can you try the same 9560 drivers on the 9500?

                                          The VBIOS defines the video output regardless of the OS/Driver settings, so it could be forcing temporal dithering at the GPU output level. Checking my NUC technical notes there are options to change this, but I can't see them in my BIOS. I guess it's locked down.

                                            si_edgey In my case i don't think the PWM is an issue because one of my favourite device is the iPhone X, and I can use it for hours and hours!
                                            I've tried to disable the FRC on my monitor thanks to the AMD driver where I can choose 6 bit or 8 bit. But I didn't felt any difference about my symptoms, instead the image quality was pretty bad without the FRC.

                                            I really don't know what the problem is! 🙁

                                              Now moving back to WIndows 7 to do a comparison. My impression is that in 2004, they fixed whatever was making it difficult to focus on (text in particular is hugely better), but somehow it still hurts over time. Certainly an improvement over 1909. I will continue to run 2004 on my laptops, but on my desktop where Windows 7 has no compatibility issues at all, I think I will run Windows 7. My comparison will be on World of Tanks, which I spend a fair amount of time playing on my desktop, and which I had pain over time using 2004.

                                              dev