M
Monie

AArchenix · Mar 16, 2021

Hey Monie! I have created an account here just to answer you. It looks like I got the same issues as you got. Right now I'm able to use almost all Apple devices (Ipad Pro, Iphone 12, 16-inch Macbook, 2019) without any issues, the same as Nintendo Switch. Since now, I have tested a bunch of different monitors:

-Dell U2515H
-LG 27UL850-W
-BenQ EW3270U
-BenQ EW3280U

and all of them hurt my eyes. After a few days of using them my vision becomes blurry, and my eyes red and tired. Everything seems back to normal when I stop using them. At this point, I believe that our eyes only tolerate high pixel density screens and this is the only option for us. As for now, I'm using my Macbook with Apple Thunderbolt display. I know that this isn't a 4k monitor, but I'm able to use it with minor issues. I'm was thinking about your monitor (LG 27GN950) but it's sooo expensive.
Another option is to build an external Retina monitor, which should rather works for both of us: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tdi7kB7x2Z0&t=545s

JJTL · Jan 28, 2021

Monie I don't know about the Air, but I know older Macbook Pro's (before circa 2012) might have been "high quality" TN panels.

MMobius · Sep 27, 2020

Lately I've been thinking a lot about the neck muscles and that being the cause of the issues. Since aside from Eye Strain, I also suffer from neck pain/stiffness at the base of the skull. This pain I think radiates to the eyes. However I'm not sure if the eye strain causes neck issues or it's the other way around.

But this is a very welcome theory and I'm going to try the exercises to see if there is any improvement. Thanks!

SSeagull · Sep 2, 2020

Have you tried sitting further away from a lower dpi monitor as a test?

My best guess is that you are bothered by either dithering or lcd inversion. Both of which create flicker from individual, but on a well implemented design the effect will be less obvious with smaller pixels, or if you are further away, as the pixels will be harder to see individually.

How are you with normal lcd smartphones? a 1080p 6" smartphone has a dpi of ₄₀₀ which, though mediocre for a smartphone will be very high compared to any monitor.

Cckf92 · Mar 23, 2017

Hello, i'm new user here..

First sorry for my poor english, i'm french.. lol.

i'm owner of LG EG910V.. (aka 9100 model for US)

i'm sensitive to RAINBOW effect on DLP projector and also on some PLASMA.

i'm sensitive to PWM or Flickering for LED (for sure)

i can confirm there is flickering or PWM on OLED. (the eyes strain and brain strain are very less stronger than LED backlight TV)
I guess the flickering should be at very very HIGH frequency.

i found a way to enjoy my OLED TV and i hope it will help anybody who's get same issues with our power eyes! lol

Actually i'm using ISF EXPERT1 mode.

Then put this settings :

OLED LIGHT : 100 (it will stop flickering)
Contrast : i put 50 or 60 it depends on your light ete sensibility about white latency retina... (it's magic on oled changing contrast settings acting like changing OLED light ... so you can fix over brightness with contrast setting)

I'm not using screen in full black... so i don't know if my trick will be ok for using in full black room. maybe setting contrast too low will give you a bad pictures.. i didn't try yet.

and disable all processing pictures and don't forget to disable EDGE ENHANCER (on picture mode setting) because i guess there is like flickering with this processing maybe it's just me ? )

i just found the solution yesterday night... but i'm pretty sure it's OK my eyes don't strain anymore when i watching screen.

i'm not sure about "real cinema" if you have to set it ON or OFF.... (mine is OFF to test i will try with ON later )

I disabled TRUMOTION because it seems to give me nausea...

I really hope my post will help.

Don't hesitate to confirm or not my experience.

Enjoy your day.

Florian.

MMagnuM · Jan 22, 2017

Monie Maybe we are twins, but who's the evil one? >=)

I only knew of the Dell U2410 because my workplace had rolled it out to the whole floor. I would imagine that a company puts a lot of research into the most comfortable monitors to stare at for 40 hours a week, every week, as to not have their employees whining and complaining constantly about viewing comfort. I liked my work monitor so much that I later bought one for home!

Your guess is as good as mine as to what the problem is. A PWM-free LED is worse than my PWM-positive Dell U2410. My guess is either an "allergy" to the spectrum of light produced by an LED, temporal dithering, or some other elusive mystery!

I don't think the Retina MBP has any PWM. Your OnePlus phone may not have it either. I also can't detect any in my iPhone 6S+ I will eventually get problems with my 6S+, and it does feel like the "LED-pain" I talked about. I also thought it might be due to the smaller screen and smaller text. However, I remember the most comfortable iPhone as being the iPhone 3G. I lost it in a Canadian snowbank once when it fell out of my phone case =(

I agree with your assessment that you seem more susceptible to PWM, while my problem seems to be something else. After losing my iPhone 3G (which I think is CCFL), my next phone was the iPhone 5, and I had to keep that phone at its minimum brightness, or I would eventually get my "LED pain" symptoms. It's the same deal with the iPhone 6S+, but if I only use it for the few minutes a day I need to, then I'm relatively OK.

Eensete · Jan 22, 2017

Monie I have tried both. I have a Dell 21" widescreen with an LED backlight, and an older 19" Dell 4:3 display with a CCFL backlight. Both cause identical issues. I have not tried a CRT monitor, since I don't have one but if i can come across one it would be an interesting test

I ordered the USB external video card for $49 off Amazon, it will be here monday. I know it will be a "low quality" card, but quality of image doesn't seem to be an issue since folks in the Intel thread have mentioned that using the standard VGA driver solved their eye strain, and that's certainly far from high quality

On Monday I will also try booting the laptop in Safe Mode to see if I can force VGA graphics, if I can do that and don't get eye strain that will strengthen the case for it being the graphics driver even more.

Rreaganry · Jan 15, 2017

Monie another dell u24xx-happy led-sensitive twin here. i do have a theory that we're all related - we should have a meetup... #2 problem after PWM is "Temporal Dithering" - the way 6-bit screens flicker/alternate colors to emulate all the ones available natively on 8 bit screens

MMaxx · Jan 15, 2017

Monie Absolutely sure. If you have seen one, you cannot make the mistake of believing that a normal LED would be an OLED or vice versa.

The Rtings guys don't know what they are talking about - even in their pictures they show the 60 Hz PWM exactly as with One Plus 3, but they claim there is no PWM. I think they are just making the assumption that when it does not flicker very agressively, it does not cause problems. Well, I had the LG OLED at HOME for 2 weeks, and I simply could not use it. I of course had disable all the TrueMotion related things that cause flickering too.

Ssi_edgey · Oct 19, 2016

Please see update below this post as this info is now out of date
Hi guys,

I'm a long term sufferer of extreme migraines and headaches which started after purchasing my Late-2011 model Macbook Pro back in Jan 2012. For me, these migraines are typified by sharp pain in my left eye, swirling nausea, neck pain, and photosensitivity, all of which can last for days from fairly short periods of usage on a 'bad' system.

I'm a long term reader and contributor of this and the Apple discussion on the subject.

After many years of trying to find solutions to allow me to use a Macbook, I have discovered that I have a particular sensitivity to temporal dithering algorithms used by OSX, some monitors / TVs and AMD graphics cards on PCs. After countless trips to doctors, optometrists and specialists there's nothing noticable wrong with my eyes, and various forms of glasses did nothing. I have only persisted with trying to use Macbooks as I teach people who use them for a living.

Anyway, I took the plunge three weeks ago after lots of tests in stores and bought a Dell XPS 15 9550 laptop (1920x1080 Matt screen, Nvidia GTX 960M & Intel 530 graphics). As soon as I received the laptop I installed Ditherig.exe:

http://kawamoto.no-ip.org/henteko/myapp_en.html

This disabled temporal dithering for Intel graphics cards. Three weeks in and my headaches and migraines have lifted. I can use the screen for hours on end with no problems whatsoever, it's back like the old days when I had a laptop without an LED display.

I do feel that the exposure to Macbook screens over the years has permanently affected my eyes though. I find that if I'm even slightly tired and I look at any kind of screen with LED lighting I'm likely to wake up with a headache or migraine, which I believe is down to s sensitivity to blue light which has increased since my problems began.

Anyway, I'm happy with where I'm at just now and wanted to share my news in the hope that it might help someone else.

Good luck!
Simon

UPDATE JANUARY 2020 (OUT OF DATE, SEE BELOW)

I just wanted to provide an update regarding my current system in 2020 as the above post is now out of date. I still have severe temporal dithering sensitivity. I have not found another usable setup, but my current laptop is perfect and I can use it for many hours per day with no eye strain or migraines. Hope this helps anyone else in my situation!

Laptop: Dell XPS 9560, with 1080p FHD matte screen
Windows Version: Windows 10 version 1511 (this is very important)
System tweaks: Intel & Nvidia Display adapters disabled in Device Manager
Software: Ditherig v1.11 with all dithering disabled, Windows Update Blocker:

https://www.sordum.org/9470/windows-update-blocker-v1-5/

UPDATE JULY 2020

Huge update here.

Since moving to Windows 10 v2004 (May 2020 update) there has been a massive improvement in my symptoms. Now, as long as I use old Intel drivers and ditherig.exe (still not sure if this does anything but can't change it now!) then I can use my machine without disabling the graphics drivers.

This has changed my life as I can now play games, do video editing, use the HDMI output, and have the power saving features of the laptop (battery lasts about 400% longer!). It's the first time in 8 years I've been able to do these things, ever since getting my first Macbook in January 2012 and discovering my temporal dithering sensitivity and my ability to have non-stop migraines..

To confirm, my 100% working setup (been testing for months now):

Laptop: Dell XPS 9560, with 1080p FHD matte screen
Windows Version: Windows 10 version 2004 (this is very important)

Intel HD 630 driver version: 21.20.16.4475 (from 2016, more recent drivers cause symptoms)
Nvidia driver version: 26.21.14.4614 (latest)

Additional Software: Ditherig v1.11 with all dithering disabled, Windows Update Blocker: https://www.sordum.org/9470/windows-update-blocker-v1-5/

After finding this solution, I tried buying some modern laptops but it would seem that all Intel UHD drivers (anything from 8th generation processors onwards) cause me symptoms. So right now the most recent processor I can use is Intel 7th generation with the 2016 drivers.

I am so happy to have a laptop I can use all day, really hope this helps someone else in my situation.

UPDATE OCTOBER 2020

I have been using Windows 10 v2004 since May now with graphics drivers enabled on my Dell XPS 15 9560 and have been largely without any issues whatsoever. Happy days.

I'm still using Ditherig.exe v1.11 (not tried any other version), Intel driver 21.20.16.4475 and Nvidia driver 26.21.14.4614.

I did have a period where I started getting headaches again, and I noticed that dithering was periodically being enabled at seemingly random intervals, but probably because some request was made to the graphics drivers. I realised this was happening because my desktop background (colour #c84141) shows banding when everything is set up correctly, and no banding when my display is problematic for me - I took pictures of what I mean:

Perfect setup - Background has Banding

[upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/XshPqNC.jpg]

Bad Setup - No Banding

[upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/qxXrpYm.jpeg]

Here's the desktop for you if you'd like to try it: [upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/P3uXaOi.jpg]

So I am checking my desktop from time to time, and if there is no banding then I have created a shortcut which restarts explorer, and this fixes the issue. To do this:

Right click on the desktop and go to New -> Shortcut
In the box that appears, copy and paste this:
C:\Windows\System32\cmd.exe /c taskkill.exe /f /im explorer.exe && start explorer.exe
Save the shortcut and run it whenever you need to

Hope that helps someone out, I can honestly say that this setup has changed my life.

Here's my system profile in case it helps someone for comparison to their machine:

[upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/11nNfbz.png]

UPDATE JANUARY 2021

Update on the Nvidia G-Sync enabled laptop I purchased, the HP Omen 15-ek0005na. Booting the laptop after receiving it I initially felt the familiar 'jitter' in my eyes, an inability for them to be at peace that I recognise from MacBooks and any laptop other than my working setup. This was followed by a dizzy feeling quite quickly.

I jumped into Device Manager and noticed that Intel UHD graphics were running alongside the RTX 2070. Opening the Omen Command Centre software there is an option to switch from Hybrid graphics (Intel & RTX - good for power saving / gaming occasionally) or to pure Discrete graphics:

[upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/ylyiyYF.png]

After switching to Discrete and rebooting the Intel UHD graphics are gone from Device Manager, the display is calm and feels flat like paper, just like on my working setup.

There are of course a few of downsides of G-Sync laptop:

being a gaming laptop, they are big and ugly - if it's for everyday work and travel the XPS 15 9560 would be my go-to
it's not silent even when idling, and makes a bit of a racket when gaming
power management in Discrete-only mode will be affected, so shorter battery life

I'm happy to trade all of this for a working machine though, and this has been the easiest on my eyes that I've tried in many years even after 6-8 hours of gaming and working each day.

Good luck!
Simon

ps I ended up returning this laptop as it was too noisy and heavy for everyday use. I am back to using the XPS 9560 laptops daily and still finding them fine.

UPDATE - DECEMBER 2024

I hope you're all well and finding solutions to your problems. I've been meaning to come back and provide an update on my current situation. In general, I have found workable, manageable systems and a balance of medications that have kept all my symptoms at bay.

Health

I am 41 and in pretty good health. I have been proactive in getting many tests done over the years in case there was some hidden physical or neurological condition that was causing the problems, but nothing major has come back.

This has included:

specialist eye tests - my local university happens to have a specialist ophthalmic department for diagnosis of obscure eye problems. Everything came back perfect - I still have 20/20 vision.
blood tests
general health check-ups and speaking with multiple specialists across different fields

I do find it important to stop using screens around an hour before bed.

Pattern Glare / Visual Stress

My journey to finding a workable phone led me to discover that I believe I may suffer from pattern glare / visual stress.

I actually believe that in my case this may contribute more to my problems more than 'temporal dithering' - in the 13 years I've been having this problem we've still not found anything conclusive relating to TD, but pattern glare / visual stress is a very real thing.

See this thread here for more information.

Neck Pain

I still experience moderate to severe neck pain from use of any systems, particularly down the back left hand side of my neck. I have found huge benefit to the likelihood of waking up with a headache / migraine from stretching at night before bed.

The yoga move child's pose works well for this - often I will continue stretching until I feel movement / popping / bubbling in my sinus area above my left eye, exactly where all my pain originates from on bad systems.

Relevant Medication - Migraines / Headaches

I have found a balance of medications that work for me - please do not take this as advice, but it is 100% relevant to my journey to a migraine-free life. I have often tried cutting down or adjusting these medications but ultimately the likelihood of headaches and migraines increases hugely.

Some of these are prescribed by my doctor, and some I have discovered to work very well for me.

Propanolol - 80mg per day

This was prescribed by my doctor for migraines and definitely has a huge positive impact.

Levothryroxine

Probably unrelated but worth mentioning in case underactive thyroid is a common problem between users here as it has wide-ranging health implications.

Magnesium - 400mg per day

I have found this to significantly improve the likelihood of waking up without a headache.

CBD Oil - 3000mg per 30 ml - 5 drops per day

This is the one I've tried and tried to disprove. I have been certain for years that there's a placebo effect with this and I have on multiple occasions stopped taking it, only to find that within a few weeks headaches and clusters of migraines return. I can say with certainty now that for me, CBD Oil is contributing very positively to my lack of migraines. This is the non-psychoactive oil (there's no high from it) and it is definitely worth a try - it does take a few weeks to build up and there's very little science to support it.

Current Usable Systems

I am still unable to simply use any system for any length of time, however with the medical interventions and stretching above I am able to use most systems for short periods of time at work without major issues.

I can still tell immediately when a screen is no good for me (jittering eyes / unable to focus / left eye will ultimately begin getting painful etc).

Dell XPS 15 9560

I have 5 of these machines now, all with the configuration detailed above and I am able to use all of them with relatively few issues other than neck pain.

They are all running the latest version of Windows 11 - windows versions don't seem to affect me. The Nvidia drivers are still the extremely old ones (about the first ones ever released for this laptop).

[upl-image-preview url=https://i.imgur.com/1Bj8Bqe.png]

[upl-image-preview url=https://i.imgur.com/y8V04X2.png]

This is my go-to laptop for working on the go. I still use ditherig and the shortcut detailed above when using this machine - as ever it's hard to prove what is actually making a difference but if it works….

New PC Build

I have recently built a new PC, including changing the monitors and graphics card. I did this in stages - taking a working system from before (GTX 770 / i7 8750 / benq 2440w monitor) and changing the motherboard and CPU first, then the monitors, and then the graphics card. I'm very happy to say that I've had no issues with it and it's working perfectly for me.

OS: Windows 11 23H2
Mobo: Asus B550 Creator
CPU: Ryzen 9 5950X
GPU: Gigabyte Geforce RTX 3070 Eagle OC 8G
GPU Driver: 32.0.15.6614 (6th Nov 2024)
Monitors: Dell S2421HN

I am finding this system completely comfortable to use, which was a huge surprise to me. I expected a lot more experimentation to find a setup / combination of hardware that would work, but it was relatively simple in the end.

iPhone 13

Please see this thread for details on how I got the iPhone 13 to be fully usable for me.

Conclusion

Good luck with your journey. Please take my experiences with a pinch of salt - this is largely a neurological condition with some physical affectations, but hopefully some of the above may help someone to find a solution to their problem.

Keep at it - it does get better!

UPDATE - JANUARY 2025

Now that I have a working RTX 3070 / Dell IPS monitor desktop setup I have been starting to feel invincible, and given my previous excellent experience with the Omen 15 gaming laptop (RTX 2070 with iGPU disabled, see above), I went ahead and bought an Omen 16 wf1001na yesterday:

CPU: i7 14700HX
GPU: RTX 4070
Display: BOE 165Hz, 1920x1080, IPS

Before even booting it I switched to discrete GPU only in the BIOS, booted up and checked device manager - only the RTX 4070 was showing as outputting to the display, and with my previous Omen 15 the display felt flat, soft, pleasant to look at - almost like paper when I switched to the discrete GPU only.

Well, not this one.

It is so unpleasant to look at, the whites feel so bright, text won't stay still - it just makes me want to look away. I had to stop after 30 minutes of use and today the familiar migraine is back. This is probably the worst reaction I've had in a few years and it feels like a reality check that the issue is still very real for me.

The panel is a BOE0B81, here's the HWInfo for the computer.

Luckily there's a great returns policy.