diop Have you tried W10 1511+No drivers setup on other machines? Does Windows update play nicely or are there any issues?

I've tried it on all the machines I use (2x desktop computers and 2x laptops) and it's fine. But I need multiple video outs from the desktops so I have to be careful which graphics cards I use - currently I'm using 2x Nvidia GTX 770 cards.

Also, I've updated the original post as you have to install Windows Update Blocker to stop ANY updates once you have a working setup. It disables the update service with one switch:

https://www.sordum.org/9470/windows-update-blocker-v1-5/

degen Hate to plug it all the time, but 2015 LTSB is based on 1507 and doesn't have the 1607+ composition layer shenanigans and it still gets security updates

Good shout actually - @diop you can use the LTSB version if you like, my problem was that my Nvidia graphics card isn't supported on 1507, so i have to use 1511.

      I got a copy of LTSB 1507 and installed on my NUC. My initial impressions are that compared to an 18xx install on a different machine I have, the 2015 version definitely looks more comfortable.

      It hasn't been connected to the internet and the resoluton seemed to be stuck at 800x600 for some reason, but it was using the MS Display Adapter.

      I still felt heavy eyes after about 5/10 minutes.. I have a feeling in my case this is a h/w issue, as 1) This NUC is much newer hardware compared to your working laptop, and 2) I believe internally it's using a DP>HDMI converter which may have something to do with it.

      Even comparing BIOS/Splash screens on my really old PC and the NUC.. The 'Intel NUC' splash is a much harsher (bluer?) white compared to the old 2010 PC I have which seems much more milky white. This may have some influence in the symptoms I am having.

      If I can find your laptop for a reasonable price in the future I will be sure to give it a try though 🙂.

        diop Sorry to hear that @diop. One of the tricky things about my particular symptoms are the lag - it can take a week or two to feel fully 'in the clear' after changing setup, so it might be worth persisting a little? Just to confirm - run dxdiag from the start menu and make sure that in the Display tab it is the basic adapter that is currently in use? And also have you installed ditherig?

        I understand that the BIOS screen shouldn't really be giving you trouble so perhaps it is a hardware issue. It's so hard to know..

        • diop replied to this.

            si_edgey Ditherig 1.11 was running. In my experience though I have never found ditherig make a difference on a desktop however on a laptop I can see a marked difference switching it on. I'm not sure why this is the case..

            Can the basic adapter go beyond 800x600 to FHD resolutions? Also how does your laptop perform with gaming/youtube videos etc?

                diop Yes, I'm running at 1920x1080 (the maximum resolution of my screen) and I really don't notice not having a graphics card apart from:

                • I can't use the HDMI out on the laptop without re-enabling graphics drivers, so I do this for presentations
                • I can't play games without re-enabling graphics drivers

                But I use Photoshop and Premiere, make music in Ableton Live, watch videos etc all without noticing any slowdown.

                  Can I just echo some earlier sentiments above that so far the MS Edge browser has been much better than any current Chrome or Firefox version that I've tried. ('Touch wood')

                    Are you guys who like Edge using the new Edge or legacy Edge?

                      degen Are you guys who like Edge using the new Edge or legacy Edge?

                      The new one (Chrome based).

                        AgentX20 Can I just echo some earlier sentiments above that so far the MS Edge browser has been much better than any current Chrome or Firefox version that I've tried. ('Touch wood')

                        I've been using it exclusively for at least a month now, and it really is more comfortable (and hard to explain why!). I would suggest everybody here try it at least for testing purposes.

                        Comparing the latest Chromium build to Edge (viewing the same web page side by side); Chromium uses the same default fonts as Edge, but there is a slight difference in the appearance. Maybe Edge is using some old IE rendering or something proprietary...

                          17 days later

                          Shasm Sadly I’ve yet to find a MacOS device that I can use comfortably for more than 30 minutes. We’re hoping for a breakthrough soon though (see the OSX dithering thread).

                            Dithing isn't an issue with me but I think I recall using the Cinnamon shell of Linux Mint, it has a control panel display setting where you can change the dithering type or just turn it off.

                            Comparing the latest Chromium build to Edge (viewing the same web page side by side); Chromium uses the same default fonts as Edge, but there is a slight difference in the appearance. Maybe Edge is using some old IE rendering or something proprietary...

                            While I will reiterate my motto of "if it works for you, great, keep doing it" that's hard to make sense of. any Chromium based browser is going to be the same no matter what the wrapper around it is. It;s the exact same rendering engine, that's the whole point of Chroimum is one identical rendering engine so no matter what browser you are using with it, devs only need to code to one standard

                            I find old versions of Firefox to be the best for my eyes, and chrome to come in second. I have to pick a new theme since the default one has the light grays that kill my eyes.

                            • diop replied to this.

                              ensete While I will reiterate my motto of "if it works for you, great, keep doing it" that's hard to make sense of. any Chromium based browser is going to be the same no matter what the wrapper around it is. It;s the exact same rendering engine, that's the whole point of Chroimum is one identical rendering engine so no matter what browser you are using with it, devs only need to code to one standard

                              I don't think MS would simply use a vanilla chromium browser and put a new skin on top (although I wouldn't put it past them either!). Have you tried Edge and noticed any difference?

                              Maybe they used an older version of chromium as a starting point, and put in their own rendering on-top. It wouldn't surprise me if chromium Edge has some IE underpinnings.

                                  diop I don't think MS would simply use a vanilla chromium browser and put a new skin on top (although I wouldn't put it past them either!).

                                  That's exactly what they (and every other Chromium browser) does.

                                  It wouldn't surprise me if chromium Edge has some IE underpinnings.

                                  The whole point of adopting Chromium is to get out of the rendering business. If they were going to bother modifying Chromium, they would just keep their own engine.

                                  It's just like Android and MIUI.

                                    Hey guys,

                                    I've had awful eye strain for over 20 years now, 60hz makes me ill, within 30 mins.....I can even feel the low refresh rate, as soon as I increased to 85hz it helped instantly. Now I'm on 144hz VA panel, but I feel that IPS is the way to go. I have a laptop on the way also, a gaming one, mainly for work but I bought it because its 300hz, 100% sRGB, IPS (No pwm)....and min 8 bit panel, I read all factors to help, preying thats the solution so I can learn to code!

                                      wipe0wt Good luck with your purchase - what laptop make and model is it out of interest? This thread is primarily dealing with temporal dithering which might be something else to look at if you're having problems with your new machine.

                                      Fingers crossed it works out for you. 🤞

                                          si_edgey I've gone for the 300hz Alienware M15 r3, I'm hoping there is no temporal differing or PWN on this particular model. Is there a way to find this out at all and can dithering be removed from an nvidia desktop out of interest?

                                          Are there screens that just dont have dithering full stop? I read that 10bit panels seem to avoid but unsure, id happily go buy whatever helps tbh! Cheers

                                            wipe0wt You notice 60hz doing web surfacing and office work?
                                            Also, what makes you feel IPS better than VA for your needs?

                                                si_edgey Would you say a higher refresh rate reduces your sensitivity to temporal dithering even when doing basic web browsing?

                                                    K-Moss Personally I’ve never found refresh rate to have any impact, although I’m mainly using laptops so have limited options in that regard.

                                                    On my desktop machines, I’m still using 2x Benq CCFL screens but although I used these for years from 2006 - 2012 without a single headache, they will still trigger a migraine quickly if plugged into ‘bad’ hardware.

                                                        dev