ryans Hmm. Maybe the video was taken with a video capture card? Or could the Windows 10 shenanigans play a role?

    JTL It's an e-ink display with low refresh rate. I think Intel GPU does do dithering on the HDMI output?

    • JTL replied to this.

      ryans I know.

      I was talking about the video he was watching, how was that recorded?

        JTL
        the patterns seen in the video, diagonally moving dots of 3 to 5 pixel diameter or writhing Celtic knots of 6 to 7 pixel width is pretty much universal. It is what I see on my computer if I do not take steps to disable dithering. I have tried every manufacturer of video card including matrox on Linux and windows 7-10. the pattern that is actively moving when dithering is enabled (dots and Celtic knots) is still present when dithering is disabled, but it is static and does not move unless you pass the mouse pointer over it. if you toggle dithering on and off it moves and stops moving on cue. this is independent of driver and video card manufacturer so long as there is a method to disable dithering in the driver. I can see the same pattern I see on my own machine in videos people have uploaded to Utube. the flicker shadow that follows mouse movement on my own machine can also be seen in the mouse movement of users who have recorded their own desktop. it extend in a triangle of maybe 30 degrees with apex at the mouse pointer extending down and to the right but not necessarily along the diagonal.

        I know this is not a product of the eink because:

        1: it can be toggled by toggling dithering in the driver
        2: the pattern seen on my machine is also seen when watching recorded video of other users desktops (mac,Linux, and windows) but the dynamic interference follows the mouse of the user in the video.
        3: it can be recorded. the recorded pattern in the video signal can be viewed in slow motion or stopped.

        the eink display forces 32bit color into a variable 16 shades of gray. I am assuming that this "binning" makes the subtle color differences that are used to temporally approximate a color that cannot natively be displayed by the lcd panel visible by making the difference in the colors more extreme than they would be on an lcd. the slow refresh rate helps to make this even more visible.

        • JTL replied to this.
        • KM likes this.
          8 days later

          I spoke with the developer of igfxtweak. His thoughts:

          1. Intel for some reasons disables dithering on <8 bit screens, but enabled it on 8 bit. This seems opposite of what dithering is designed for: https://communities.intel.com/message/428034. However this does not explain why I don't see banding on a laptop screen that I suspect is 6bit.

          2. The reason we can see dithering on the e-ink displays is likely because the display represents itself as having 8 bit panel. This means Intel will use diterthing.

          3. Data sheets about Intel GPUs here: https://github.com/olvaffe/gpu-docs

          4. igfxtweak tool does support external monitors, I don't know about ditherig.

          • JTL replied to this.

            ryans

            ryans Intel for some reasons disables dithering on <8 bit screens, but enabled it on 8 bit. This seems opposite of what dithering is designed for: https://communities.intel.com/message/428034. However this does not explain why I don't see banding on a laptop screen that I suspect is 6bit.

            Laptops are 6-bit and have dithering by the GPU?

            ryans The reason we can see dithering on the e-ink displays is likely because the display represents itself as having 8 bit panel. This means Intel will use diterthing.

            Yes. Well I've never seen an external display that represents itself as being under 8-bit.

            ryans Data sheets about Intel GPUs here: https://github.com/olvaffe/gpu-docs

            I think I've already posted some data sheet PDF's a while back?

            ryans igfxtweak tool does support external monitors, I don't know about ditherig.

            igfxtweak supports it by the multiple "pipelines" as seen in the datasheet (one pipeline per GPU output connector).

            Why do we call it ditherig and not dithering.exe? Someone made a typo once and it stuck? lol.

            No promises but I might have something similar for AMD graphics under Windows/OSX/Linux in the future. I've been busy but be rest assured I'm still working on it 😉

              JTL The guy who wrote "ditherIG" doesn't exactly speak Engrish.

                Do you guys mean if I buy an ONYX BOOX Max2 I may end up with a thousand bucks less in my pockets and another gadget I am not able to use?

                  JTL :-(
                  Is that a potential problem only in case the device is employed as a secondary display or standalone as well?

                  • JTL replied to this.

                    AGI I do not know.

                    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

                    • AGI replied to this.

                      JTL I feel like every day I wake up and I have one point of reference less, and an upgrade could downgrade my life quality. Why are they even called upgrades?

                      Since you are the temporal dithering guru, I thought dithering were for getting more colors out of the color palette. Why would it be employed in e-ink display technology? To have different grey tones?
                      Also, in my first post on this website I asked why in the past I found relief by lowering the screen resolution. Monitors or laptop displays would pass from unusable to quite comfy. I was wondering whether there is an interplay between resolution and PWM. KM instead suggested dithering, which I had never heard of before that time. So I formulate my question. You seem to have studied in detail both dithering and PWM. Have you ever seen what happens if the display is not run at native resolution? Does dithering fade? Thanks for any feedback!

                        AGI I don't think anyone gets eye strain from E-Ink displays (that have no light). Their refresh rate is low. Even if some temporal dithering comes through like we maybe have seen in the video, it will have a very low rate.
                        The only thing that I would make sure to turn off is any LED light.

                        I thought about buying a Dasung Paperlike Pro even if duty and taxes should apply on top of the price (adding up to well over $1000) but then I read that the device doesn't have a "CE" sign and that no CE papers exist. Which due to European laws is required for any electronically device that gets imported to the EU. If they open the package at the border and don't find a CE sign or papers, they will either destroy it or send it back and you have to pay for it. I heard in Austria they don't control packages as much. But in other EU states the purchase seems risky.

                        • AGI replied to this.

                          KM Have you considered the ONYX BOOX Max 2? I am thinking of getting it shipped by Amazon US to Asia where I am currently located. There is ~ 10% extra to pay for shipping and import taxes, but no mention to any issue at the custom. Well, besides warranty (if the device needs repair I would have to ship it back to the US at my expenses).

                          • KM replied to this.

                            AGI Haven't considered that one yet. I think somewhere I read it might be slower than the Paperlike which made it less attractive. Still need to verify that.

                            KM The only thing that I would make sure to turn off is any LED light.

                            Do you mean sources of illumination in general, like lamps in the working place?

                            • KM replied to this.

                              AGI Some electronic paper devices have their own light that may flicker or be otherwise uncomfortable.

                              • AGI replied to this.
                                dev