K-Moss I can visibly see 60hz, can’t explain why but I know instantly if it’s low refresh. So most screens seem to dither a lot too, in fact I’ve just bought w new monitor and it was 8+2 £1500 LG 38GL950G and my eyes are bleeding, gutted really, the dithering only engages when hdr is switched on, like most monitors. Incidentally though I’ve crazy gamed on my LGC9 with hdr on but it has no FRC there and I’ve had zero issues but I am sat a distance away.....I’ve 3 weeks to sort out before I send it back.

    7 days later

    I have edited the original post with a hugely significant update to my setup. This is a 100% working setup for me, I have been testing it for months. I can now play games (and do so much more on my laptop) for the first time in 8 years.

    Hope it helps somebody. 😀

    si_edgey Huge update here.

    Since moving to Windows 10 v2004 (May 2020 update) there has been a massive improvement in my symptoms. Now, as long as I use old Intel drivers and ditherig.exe (still not sure if this does anything but can't change it now!) then I can use my machine without disabling the graphics drivers.

    This has changed my life as I can now play games, do video editing, use the HDMI output, and have the power saving features of the laptop (battery lasts about 400% longer!). It's the first time in 8 years I've been able to do these things, ever since getting my first Macbook in January 2012 and discovering my temporal dithering sensitivity and my ability to have non-stop migraines..

    To confirm, my 100% working setup (been testing for months now):

    Laptop: Dell XPS 9560, with 1080p FHD matte screen
    Windows Version: Windows 10 version 2004 (this is very important)

    Intel HD 630 driver version: 21.20.16.4475 (from 2016, more recent drivers cause symptoms)
    Nvidia driver version: 26.21.14.4614 (latest)

    Additional Software: Ditherig v1.11 with all dithering disabled, Windows Update Blocker: https://www.sordum.org/9470/windows-update-blocker-v1-5/

    After finding this solution, I tried buying some modern laptops but it would seem that all Intel UHD drivers (anything from 8th generation processors onwards) cause me symptoms. So right now the most recent processor I can use is Intel 7th generation with the 2016 drivers.

        si_edgey Thanks for the update!

        I have recently been given a laptop which was no longer needed (Acer Aspire V3-771) and have since upgraded it with an SSD and 16GB memory. I'm running the latest W8.1 which I know is good for a few years. I also have made sure to note down VBIOS/BIOS versions, drivers in use, what Windows updates etc etc to ensure I can rollback in the future if needbe. For a home setup, I'm pretty much covered for the next 5 years. My suggestion to others out there is, if you don't absolutely need discrete graphics, try to pick up a used Ivy Bridge laptop or similar gen, downgrade the BIOS if possible to the earliest version, and upgrade SSD and RAM, it will hopefully be comfortable to use and you should get a few more years from 8.1.

        This doesn't solve the initial problems, though. I still find it troublesome that a driver update or simply using a particular device causes symptoms. I do believe it simply is a toggle ON>OFF somewhere in the BIOS/Drivers to sort this out. We still need to pressurise Intel et al to offer a solution (either via CLI or some hidden easter egg, it doesn't have to be in the main software suite).

          si_edgey if it’s a dithering issue then why not buy a monitor that doesn’t dither? If not looked into this fully but not sure if it’s to do with dithering although my new monitor is making me feel really sick at the moment within like 10 minutes! LG 38GL950G

              JTL my old benq XL2420Te had dithering 6+2 bit but i was miles better with this monitor than my current one 😩😩😩.....I’m ready to send it back, £1500 for nothing! No idea what’s wrong, I’ve gone from a desktop pc to a laptop and the new monitor, I had no issues using the ips screen on the laptop so thought the monitor was the way to go! (LG 38GL950G)

                wipe0wt I still can't say with 100% certainty that temporal dithering is the cause, it's just the best guess at this time. 8 years in and still not 100% on the cause of this illness.

                But I have 2x CCFL Benq monitors that I can use all day long on a good machine (I used to do games programming for 12 hours per day at uni on them!) but plug them into a Macbook and I start getting sick within 30 minutes. For my condition, the monitor is not as important as the source - I've not changed monitors in 10 years for work or play.

                You never know, if you plug your monitor into a 'good' source then you might be able to use it all day long. That's the difficulty with this condition. Either way, get that monitor sent back asap - no point in wasting that kind of money.

                    weirdly, I'm getting the feeling like I used to do when working on 60hz screens.........but without the obvious flickering I used to be able to pick up. I've a humidifier on the way today....

                    si_edgey wow serious?? The source is to blame, that’s a concern......and added complication. So you simulate the conditions 100%? Isn’t CCFL meant to make things worse for most? Yeah I think your right, the 21:10 is nice but a 21:9 half price AMVA looks the next shot for me. I have my old source but it keeps getting blue screen of death despite me going back to old images etc, I’ll try fix again, I sold my old monitor I was ok with though....do have a 75hz one though but the old was 144hz.

                    ok then is it the lead?? I was used to dual dvi and now it’s mini DP to DP. Some have said the lead, some have said the resolution, some the ppi, some the refresh.....is your MacBook 60hz? That would be significantly lower than your pc output perhaps?

                      6 days later

                      weirdly, I'm getting the feeling like I used to do when working on 60hz screens.........but without the obvious flickering I used to be able to pick up. I've a humidifier on the way today....

                      Hi @wipe0wt, might be best to start a new thread for your problem? Like you're finding out - it's a lot more complex than simply finding the right monitor. The source, the drivers, the leads, the room lighting and the monitor can all be a factor in this, so it's about finding the right combination that works for you, which may not work for anyone else. That's the difficulty with whatever condition it is that we all have.

                      But once you have a working setup....STOP!

                      And yes, I've been working on this for 8 years and I can confirm that a monitor I can use all day long via HDMI on a 'good laptop', can trigger a migraine after 30 minutes of use on a 'bad laptop'. Very strange, but true.

                        I’m thinking it’s a reaction given off by some frequencies, if you check display specifications site and see all the tech frequencies monitors run there all different, what if electromagnetic waves are the culprit, at times I feel like I’m suffering radiation poisoning, sounds a bit far fetched but I’m determined to work it out, here’s an interesting blog https://cardiogod.com/featured-articles/computers-can-they-harm-your-heart.html

                          wipe0wt Hmm you can go down that route if you like but this probably isn't the forum for it. Personally, I think you should start by assuming you're sensitive to some form of flickering like most people on this forum - temporal dithering, PWM, FRC or something else.

                              So are TN panels generally the most comfortable? I noticed the BenQ you preferred is TN.

                              si_edgey Like you're finding out - it's a lot more complex than simply finding the right monitor. The source, the drivers, the leads, the room lighting and the monitor can all be a factor in this, so it's about finding the right combination that works for you, which may not work for anyone else. That's the difficulty with whatever condition it is that we all have.

                              But once you have a working setup....STOP!

                              This is the difficult thing. For some people who perhaps threw out/recycled/sold their old tech, all devices in their possession could be problematic. So first make sure you have a system you know has a comfortable output and then maybe play around with older OS/Drivers. You also need to know you have a good monitor, and it's difficult to separate the monitor/source as the antagonist. I haven't had much luck with any tech >2014, even refurbs from the late 2000's have caused problems for me.

                              si_edgey And yes, I've been working on this for 8 years and I can confirm that a monitor I can use all day long via HDMI on a 'good laptop', can trigger a migraine after 30 minutes of use on a 'bad laptop'. Very strange, but true.

                              Which in my opinion is a good thing because it rules out the monitor as a point of failure. It is either the output of the device itself or the drivers/software. Also if you read into how temporal dithering works, it's no surprise it's causing issues (to my knowledge, these techniques weren't used until the last decade). I don't even think it was possible to use temporal dithering on a CRT/VGA setup back in the day. You could count the pixels back then and banding was everywhere anyway 🙂.

                                    si_edgey Well in the space of a week of me investigating causes of eye irritation mainly being classed as 'dry eye syndrome' I've unravelled quite a few things already and although I might be noob to this forum and finding a solution I've 20+ years of pain experienced with visual stress! Sadly I need to work behind a PC as I run my own business stuff but currently thats all on the backburner completely until I get sorted.

                                    For sure, technology play a massive role, but thats only one half of the battle I feel, if your to look at a pathological approach then you have to go way back to the start which actually is your eyes. With this in mind I've found out that in each eye lid is around 30 Meibomian glands that secrete oils which mix with our tears to form a lubricant other the eye; if these ducts fail then guess what, your eyes fail to lubricate the eye so regardless of technology if people suffering eye strain have failed ducts then even the right tech is going to provide the respite were all needing.

                                    I booked into an optician but requested the optometrist who even know what MG are and the disorder (MGD) is. Its normally a consequence of Blepharitus, as it happens I have a mild case of this and also some of my ducts are indeed blocked. There are various ways to treat this but over 70% of people over 50 suffer dry eye in any case yet with a few steps taken the impacts can be reduced, such as good eye lid hygine and the use of a warm compress (i've just bought the blephasteam, but also an electric warm compress).

                                    The next step is to treat my eyes like teeth, which is to get each gland graded, to do this I need to get what is known as lipiview or an alternative where they can photo scan the glands, from there they can treat the blepharitus with blephex treatment (just a cleanup) and then you can consider the more aggresive options of lipoflow or IPS (intense pulse light) treatment.

                                    Photophobia is highly linked to dry eye conditions, it normally happens after the dry eye which can explain why not things are getting worse for me, I'm not ruling out tech being a cause of distress but its just one of a whole host of ingredients I feel.......EMF? , lighting conditions, air quality, humidity, eye disorders (already mentioned, allergic conjuctivitus, anterio Uvietis xyz, hydration, diet, lighting conditions, tech) all these if boxed off I'm sure can improve the situation

                                    In the 20 mins Its taken me to write this I can already feel the impacts its having on me, sudden heavy feeling in the eyes causing pain to radiate to my chest (no pun intended)

                                    I saw an eye teaching hospital last Friday and they packed me away with some Vista Mesh glasses which prevent light scatter and block EMF apparently but there doing nothing for me right now I don't think. My last screen had FRM/TD and this new one does also but the only idea I have now is to try an AMVA panel, seems that has helped fix things for some people.

                                      9 days later

                                      Just a note, I tested positive for evaporative eye disease, basically some of my meibomian glands are blocked up Which is guaranteed to cause dry eye and then a host of other issues, get your eyes MOT’d before spending on technical as maybe some cause less issue but if your eyes are drying up your tears and the oils isn’t mixing then no wonder people have issues

                                        12 days later

                                        si_edgey I'm going to try your setup, but I'm a little bit confused since there are various models of that laptop. I'm trying to buy the very same laptop, so I would appreciate if you tell me if it's IPS or TN panel type. I presume it's non-touch screen?

                                            6 days later

                                            I wonder of my problems can be anyhow related to temporal dithering and mabye you can advice me something..

                                            I have made some posts on the forum but short story: I was an IT guy working with different monitors and PC gamer with my montor EIZO FS2434 (it is 6bit +FRC) and never had any problems. I have also played on PS1, PS2 and PS3 with older TVs which I dont remember now all was fine. At the PS4 era I have bought a SONY TV kdl-43WD750 (claimed flicker free - DC method) and connected there PC and PS4 all was fine...
                                            Here when the problems started.. After a year I wanted something bigger and with more hdmi inputs so I sold 43wd750 and I have bought first 4k Panasonic ex700 TV and at the same time I have bought Switch and have played on this TV only this game and only on switch for around 150h+ all was fine... after I have finished this game I went back to my PS4 and discovered I can;t use it at all I had bloody red eyes, headaches after just like 30mins.. On PC it was similar but the symphms werent that drastic but still unusable. Back then I thought its PWM (Panasonic TVs use 240hz PWM) so I have bought two other TV from SONY which gave me sympthoms... last one was SONY XE9005 (flicker free with backlight =>8/50) on this one I could use PC, TV, movies mostly withtout problems but STILL couldnt use PS4 at all (no bloody eyes but headaches). I left this XE9005 and used it for like 1-2 years with PC only and sold PS4... I had problems with some games like Sniper Ghost warrior but just skipped them... in the past couple of months I wanted to play Assetto corsa on it and the sympthoms were bad... in any sim racing game I had strong headache and eye pains. I have read on one forum that in new update TV they toned down whites on this TV which were too bright I have never update this TV but did this and it was a big mistake because TV started to became unusable for me with PC at all... even when I watch movie from connected PC im getting some headaches front/top or back at my head..
                                            I will add that when I have tried connect back then PS4 to my EIZO FS2434 all was fine... When im watching you tube or content on this TV itself using app/browser im getting no sympthoms.. but when watching / gaming through connected PC via HDMI its horrible..when I used PS4 with it its horrible..I have tried 4k blu ray player and had to return in couldn't watcha movie... im using PS3 blu ray and that is fine.
                                            I have also recently tried dell u4320q as replacement for my TV and there was no symphtoms at all... I could play anygame and didnt had any single symphom. Unfortunately it was a little to low and I had neck pains and had to return this because of this.
                                            Back then years ago I have tried and took PS4 to my work and connected it to one monitor there which were using PWM and it was fine...
                                            I have also found on this forum that RGB full disables dithering completely and I have it on full on PC and on TV but sympthoms are there... On this topic you write about that program which can disable dithering but it's only on intel CPUs? btw. im using Ryzen 1700 + gtx 1070, windows 7, old driver 382, updates off (no change/format from 3-4 years).

                                            You could just think I could use only my Eizo monitor and be fine - right but im tired of sitting at desk after all those years and I really liked the couch relaxing gaming and I want that... Im getting tired neck/shoulders quite fast even that im exercising daily from couple of years and been visiting a physiotherapist regurally (now unfortunately of corona visits has stopped).
                                            Best solution would be 49-50 inch monitor but there are none of this size...

                                            So my conclusion is that if I connect almost any monitor to this PC machine or PS4 im fine but TVs are mostly not why? Monitors I usually connect throught dvi (my eizo) or DP (like that dell).
                                            Can it be the dithering if most hardware (my PC, PS4) I connect to TV is bad? Any thoughts I would appreciate...

                                              dev