It's interesting that some of the models you listed have 8-bit + FRC. These are typically the panels I struggle with the most. I try to set everything to sRGB when possible. I do wonder if some panels still use FRC to attempt to make sRGB look better. That's why I tend to look for 8 bit native monitors. Thanks for the list! I can seem to use my BenQ entry level 8 bit monitor, but it's not as comfortable as I'd like. I can't game on it for long without feeling fatigued and a bit overwhelmed which is weird as I'm certain it does not have FRC and supposedly uses DC dimming within certain brightness ranges.
Recommendations for new monitor
Clokwork It's interesting that some of the models you listed have 8-bit + FRC. These are typically the panels I struggle with the most.
I don't think I've ever actually tried 8-bit + FRC, but for whatever reason, 6-bit + FRC doesn't seem to bother me. It might depend on the graphics card, though, because I'm not a gamer so I generally just use integrated graphics. I'm a programmer, so it's mostly just text on a white background for me.
The LG 27MQ450-B 27" is 6-bit + FRC and I love it...
Are all of these tested with the thorlabs pda100a2? Thanks to you, I also acquired one but still might need to upgrade the oscilloscope.
- Edited
GregAtkinson Huh, I'm also a programmer but I can't stand any monitors with 6bit+FRC for programming. Even with an old CCFL TN at 100% backlight to avoid PWM and a safe old Windows 8.1 laptop connected I can still notice the FRC (especially when moving my head). It feels like the background of the code editor is distracting me away from the text.
6bit on Windows laptops is a lot more manageable because usually on Intel graphics laptops you can disable FRC entirely with ditherig.exe which will reduce it to true 6 bit with tons of banding.
6bit on laptops vs. monitors:
Since I don't care about seeing banding, a panel on a laptop that only claims to be 6bit on Panelook is sometimes even a good sign, because it reduces the chance that a claimed "8bit" panel is actually doing FRC anyway through its TCON chip etc.
On the other hand, when I get around to finding a good external monitor though, I instead prefer to actually seek out "true 8-bit" - - because contrary to laptops where the GPU often does the FRC, on external monitors it's almost always "built into" the panels themselves.
I basically have the opposite situation because playing games (e.g. connecting a Nintendo Switch) is actually fine on that same CCFL TN monitor! This is mostly because games are usually in constant motion anyway and most of my FRC problems happen on still or mostly text-based content.
However, regardless of panel, any Windows version after 1809 is unusable for me (at least on laptops) for some reason on many devices, seemingly due to a strange subpixel rendering technique where I can notice some red and blue subpixels emphasized when I look very closely at the screen. See my T480 thread where I actually confirmed this on two separate laptops.
This is only semi-related, but I figured I'd drop this general word of advice here:
- Win10 1809
- Windows and driver updates disabled (with Winaero Tweaker)
- oldest Intel integrated graphics driver possible
- all available Intel video enhancement settings disabled or set to lowest value
- ditherig.exe (dithering will disable immediately after launching)
- (if it's a laptop) DPST disabled in addition to whichever ones of these show up for your device: Panel Self Refresh, Dynamic Refresh Rate, Enhanced Battery Life for Gaming also all disabled
is a great "safe" test combo for displays that is really effective for nailing down which issues are truly the panel's fault instead the software's fault.
It helped me narrow down my Lenovo T480's issues to simply "the Innolux panel has very intense and noticeable PWM that shows up on camera, even at max brightness" instead of all of the even worse disorientation/tiredness/nausea/depth perception issues I was having on "current" Win10 and Win11.
Downgrading to 1809 and applying the steps above, shockingly, basically fixed or at least significantly reduced all of those deeper issues.
Now, only the "really annoying eyestrain and pressure" symptom remains, which from my consistent experience, I can tell is directly associated with that laptop panel's PWM.
- Edited
DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs I can't stand any monitors with 6bit+FRC for programming
Recently I've been thinking that there are probably lots of screen-related triggers that affect some people but not others. Backlight PWM dimming seems to affect a lot of people, but FRC seems to affect a smaller percentage. For me, I seem to be affected by even very small amounts of flicker that comes from the pixels or the backlight. The amount of flickering is so small (for me) that it's only measurable with a very sensitive photodetector + oscilloscope combo.
I seem to be lucky regarding Windows - I can use any version of Windows without issues (as long as the monitor is good).
- Edited
GregAtkinson For me, I seem to be affected by even very small amounts of flicker that comes from the pixels or the backlight.
This definitely applies to me too. I can usually even "see it"! And then, I'm pretty sure what's happening is that causes my eyes to want to automatically and subconsciously want to focus more to try to "see this very subtle thing more clearly" which of course causes strain or blurry/double vision.
The "more subtle or trying to be hidden it is" it's actually worse for me for the most part. Because on the opposite end, I'm totally fine with extreme flashing strobe lights at concerts, I do not have epilepsy, and have only only experienced one migraine many years ago in my entire life. But the moment it gets into """invisible""" flicker territory such as on most LED lightbulbs is when I start experiencing all the issues.
I'm glad you can use all versions of Windows! I have a suspicion that some of the issues with more modern Windows versions are only present on laptop LCDs and not external monitors, and/or possibly only occur on integrated graphics.
- Edited
I think their are basic principles but no one size fits all solution. It's useful to see both the personal experiences and the "objective" measurement data. What's interesting is when the subjective experience does not seem match the measurements.
FWIW, I'm not a professional programmer but prior to more severe eyestrain and discovering this site I was doing a moderate amount of graphics related programming (VSCode with default white and darker material theme in the evening, windows 11 using both mix of both integrated and discrete gpu modes). I attribute eyestrain to switching from 240hz to 60hz refresh rate on a laptop screen and increased "stress". I do not remember ever having significant eyes issue during the windows 7,8,10 and using laptops with wide gamut support and/or PWM like the thinkpad w520, t500, etc. which I not longer have for testing.
- Edited
How do you define "reasonably low flicker" in your oscilloscope measurements? I have been using 20dB gain on the detector but have tried higher gain settings but that makes it even harder to find a device with a "flat" waveform.
photon78s How do you define "reasonably low flicker" in your oscilloscope measurements? I have been using 20dB gain on the detector but have tried higher gain settings but that makes it even harder to find a device with a "flat" waveform.
Before I answer that, let me refer to this chart. I pulled these numbers from the Thorlabs site:
10dB = 3.3x
20dB = 10x
30dB = 33x
40dB = 100x
Here's my favorite (now dead...) laptop. Barely any flicker at 40dB/100x magnification:
Here's the same model, but with a different panel. This is unusable for me. I assume the flicker is what makes it unusable, but I can't say that for 100% certainty - maybe something else that can't be picked up by the photodetector (like FRC or pixel inversion) is causing the problem.
Here's the LG 27MQ450-B at 100x magnification:
I have the waveforms for all the monitors in the table a few posts above in case you want me to post a few of the waveforms. I'm too lazy to post all 20 of them though. :-)
If you want more details, you might be interested in this thread:
https://ledstrain.org/d/2598-help-wanted-to-measure-flicker-andor-test-a-flicker-free-monitor
- Edited
Thanks! Similarily, I can tolerate this (lenovo legion 7i 2023 at max brightness measured with the thorlabs detector but using only the Miniware DS213):
But not this (samsung s10+ at max brightness). Both at 20dB.
The lenovo screen at max brightness, detector at 40dB, and oscilloscope window at 10mS.
3 months later
a month later
- Edited
I finally figured out why the position of my main monitor on my dual monitor stand determines whether or not I will have a dizzy feeling at my desktop. It's because when I have my main monitor on the left, and I'm positioned more to the left of my desk and facing straight - now positioned closer to and facing a room corner - there is less air flow and my exhalation doesn't circulate out as well, leading to higher CO2 concentration levels. With the main monitor to my right, I'm sitting slightly more to the right and facing diagonally to the open part of the room where there is better air flow. The better air flow in the center of the room is in part due to how air works in a room but also due to the channel of air circulation I create with my tower fan that moves air coming in from one vent then out the door on the other side of the room.
This dizzy feeling is the same feeling I get when I've either kept my doors closed for too long or had inadequate fan circulation channels (Where air may be moving a lot due to different fan sources but chaotically, making it hard for air to efficiently enter one side of a room and exit the other. This can be caused by air purifiers or poor fan setup).
It's always been CO2. So what I can do now is either move my monitor to the right position of my dual monitor stand, which I've done, or move my desk which is hard to do with my current room layout. I recommend people experiencing dizziness to consider air circulation in the position they use their computer.
You guys can write such a long text, what a patience.
TrantaLocked I keep as far as I can. I even recommend getting 2x of the same desk, so you could place monitor far away and increase scaling. Also, disable all sensors, install ditherig.exe and pick explicitly sRGB color profile on monitor. Also set wifi transmit power to lowest. All these remove all dizziness. Also, do not use windows 10, use windows 11.
- Edited
Donux Yeah maybe. I'm still trying to figure that out. I was using my Samsung 2494 CCFL LCD for about a year with no eye strain and then it randomly developed a green hue and color banding a few days ago and I decided to put my Acer VA LED back to the right position. But even then I still feel like I've been having more issues after my last post. Could EMFs actually be involved? What kind of EMFs can monitors produce?
Anyway, I opened up my Samsung 2494 monitor, blew on the video processing PCB and reseated the internal display cable on both ends, and miraculously the green hue and color banding are completely fixed. First time I have ever been successful in a monitor repair or modification attempt.
I am very happy about this repair success because I have used this type of Samsung CCFL LCD for my main monitor for over a decade and really do not want to switch until I can buy an affordable OLED/MicroLED monitor where there is no chance of backlight color temperature being a problem. I have given up on all of the modern LCD panels because it always seems like something is wrong. My Samsung is just nicer to look at. It has the typical greenish backlight temperature and a coarse grey colored matte coating. Despite being tech from 2008 and having PWM, it's really good.
I do still think I'm having circulation issues in that side of the room regardless of the monitor. I will probably need to buy a second fan and place it in the corner facing the direction the existing air current goes.
There are some OLED monitors now at the size I would want. Any of them actually good? With them now reaching around $500 open box, $100-200 OLED monitors may not be that far off in the future.
5 months later
Has anyone tried Xaomi 4k 27 inch monitor ? This is as I understand direct from Chinese brand, which is the only one that is marketed not just flicker free which means nothing, but they write DC dimming (hopefully not partial).
Donux Has anyone tried Xaomi 4k 27 inch monitor ?
There has been possible concern raised about recent Xiaomi monitors on this forum
simplex I have inspected their website and to be fair they did not mention any where that this is flicker free, or if its DC dimming. Only mention is TUV low blue light. So if they do mention this on other products, and do not mention on this one, then clearly it is not flicker free.
I hope someone could provide feedback on Xaomi 4k 27 model where they claim it is flicker free TUV certified and it is DC dimming.