Anyone who have issues with LED screens tried Apple Vision Pro? Do you think this will solve our problems? Because future of innovation seems going in this direction. Monitors may become obsolete in few years time.

karthi3219 I think this is super critical if/when more and more people are going to have displays so close to their faces. Are their "micro-OLEDs" free of issues that exist in other OLEDs? https://spectrum.ieee.org/apple-vision-pro

karthi3219 I'm weirdly confident about Apple Vision Pro for a few reasons: Eye tracking as the primary control method could actually be a really smart idea, as you're forced to directly connect where you're looking with what the UI does. So if you're out of focus or jumping around, you're not able to click the thing you want. Why this is smart is that if this feature actually works, I feel like this will help "train" my eyes how to look and focus on the screen in the "right way". When I'm in that "flow state" of quickly navigating around the UI through my muscle memory, I'm repeating not just the "virtual" actions I learned in the UI — but also positively reinforcing the same physical eye movements that I had to use to accomplish the correct actions the first time around, which may actually improve the precision of my eye movements and reduce double vision. Of course, this could all backfire and I won't be able to navigate the UI at all, but only time will tell. Even if it does use end up using temporal dithering, the whole passthrough video feed including constantly moving real life objects would be dithered with the same pattern as the more static, purely "digital" content — which I feel might allow the dithering to finally "blend in" with the general subtle noise that human vision generates anyway. Even though I absolutely hate temporal dithering on completely still content like text… I've actually never had significant issues with temporal dithering with content that is highly "in motion" anyway like fast-paced action games and movies. The that there's always passthrough video on the Vision Pro screen that's "naturally moving" (in sync with my head movement) may let me more easily "tune out" the noise and start perceiving content that's "supposed to be still" like text more accurately — since the text is now "within" a moving environment instead of it being the sole thing rendered on the screen. I'm aware some people here also have issues with temporal dithering even when watching movies, so YMMV. I know someone who bought a Vision Pro, so I may be able to try it out soon! I'll update here if I end up being able to try — and let y'all know if my theories are correct, or if it's just like every other modern Apple screen all over again…

Can Apple Vision Pro solve our problems?

Sunspark

Monitors will definitely not become obsolete. These headsets are heavy and use a lot of battery power.

Books are still printed, radio is still broadcast, etc.

seeker_of_no_light

as it was already stated monitors will not become obsolete. For over ten years now the tech industry has tried to push VR headsets and despite the gargantuan amounts of funding those devices have received in marketing and development, it is still niche product and even Apple won't change that.

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

karthi3219 I'm weirdly confident about Apple Vision Pro for a few reasons:

Eye tracking as the primary control method could actually be a really smart idea, as you're forced to directly connect where you're looking with what the UI does. So if you're out of focus or jumping around, you're not able to click the thing you want.

Why this is smart is that if this feature actually works, I feel like this will help "train" my eyes how to look and focus on the screen in the "right way". When I'm in that "flow state" of quickly navigating around the UI through my muscle memory, I'm repeating not just the "virtual" actions I learned in the UI — but also positively reinforcing the same physical eye movements that I had to use to accomplish the correct actions the first time around, which may actually improve the precision of my eye movements and reduce double vision.

Of course, this could all backfire and I won't be able to navigate the UI at all, but only time will tell.
Even if it does use end up using temporal dithering, the whole passthrough video feed including constantly moving real life objects would be dithered with the same pattern as the more static, purely "digital" content — which I feel might allow the dithering to finally "blend in" with the general subtle noise that human vision generates anyway.

Even though I absolutely hate temporal dithering on completely still content like text… I've actually never had significant issues with temporal dithering with content that is highly "in motion" anyway like fast-paced action games and movies. The that there's always passthrough video on the Vision Pro screen that's "naturally moving" (in sync with my head movement) may let me more easily "tune out" the noise and start perceiving content that's "supposed to be still" like text more accurately — since the text is now "within" a moving environment instead of it being the sole thing rendered on the screen.

I'm aware some people here also have issues with temporal dithering even when watching movies, so YMMV.

I know someone who bought a Vision Pro, so I may be able to try it out soon! I'll update here if I end up being able to try — and let y'all know if my theories are correct, or if it's just like every other modern Apple screen all over again…

jordan

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs if it has eye tracking then the infrared light could also be a trigger to some. iPhone faceid sensors bother me, same with tobii sensors. Curious to hear how it works for ya!

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

jordan Interesting, I don't think I've had any problems with IR personally. (Everyone's different of course…)

That is, a mediocre iPhone OLED is still the same mediocre OLED to me no matter what the Face ID settings are… i.e. turning off Face ID does not make the iPhone's screen or its annoying PWM flicker feel any better to me.

For reference — PWM in general (including light bulbs), temporal dithering on static content, and poor quality overly glossy screen coatings are the three things I usually have a big problem with.

jordan

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs yeah I agree! I mean iPhones aren't comfortable for me at all but noticed the faceid did add onto the discomfort with other symptoms.

If this vision pro worked that would be really awesome! The valve index was fine at the time for me when I use to have it. This would be a nice alternative to that if it ends up being comfortable.

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

jordan

I tried the Vision Pro!

Here is a comment I posted a few days ago on 9to5mac:

I tried a friend's Vision Pro and I can definitely say this is much less of an issue than I worried. I have issues with binocular vision and get eye strain with some types of screens in laptops/phones like OLED iPhones, so I was extremely surprised how comfortable VP is, maybe more than some "typical" screens. Not disoriented, felt great after 1.5hrs+ use!

I can 100% assure passthrough, although low res, is depth correct. Objects across room look far away as they normally would. (Something to note is that I did not see warping at all. The weird distortion people mention about Quest's passthrough is not there on VP.)

Your other comment about if it can create "differing ranges of focus" is actually true. Can be close, medium, far objects from both passthrough and VP's UI all within one scene. They appeared at the correct unique distances for me, able to shift focus between distances pretty easily.

The thing about eye strain in the context of close up objects is that it's less about actual distance of objects, and instead, the way eyes are moving to look at that object. Because VP's lenses allow the "close" screens to stay clear when eyes are diverged — like they usually would when looking far away — so eyes remain relaxed, more likely to focus farther than using phones. 2 unique screens (1 per eye) actually helped me "not focus wrong"!

Only eye strain was Mindfulness app, it blacks out passthrough, no "naturally moving" feed to compare depth of app graphics to. Only time I felt "too close" or "OLED taped to my face"

Based on my experience constantly browsing the web and trying a few apps for 1.5 hours…

I am actually very optimistic about Vision Pro!! 🙂

Disclaimer:

I'm typically sensitive to PWM, temporal dithering, and flickering LED/fluorescent lightbulbs. I do not have seizures or migraines at all, which means lights that are visibly flashing, like at a concert, are actually fine to me. However, my issue is when light "invisibly" flickers, such as PWM.

That's when I get extreme fatigue, eye strain, brain fog, reduced field of vision, trouble concentrating, and trouble focusing and moving my eyes correctly.
Yet all of those symptoms basically stop impacting me when I use "true zero flicker" setups, like Waveform lights, old dither-free graphics drivers, and FRC-free + DC dimmable monitors.
In the case of dithering, my sensitivity depends on the content. I seem to be OK with temporal dithering in media that has lots of motion anyway, like movies or fast paced action games. But when temporal dithering is applied to static content like on most MacBooks and newer GPUs, I cannot stand it, it completely prevents me from understanding information-dense text or feeling relaxed.
If you have more severe symptoms than I do, or also have issues with visibly flashing lights at concerts in addition to invisible flicker like PWM, my experience might not be as helpful or applicable.

A few more Vision Pro notes:

Screen resolution is adjacent to looking at a good projector, it's okay but not as sharp as reviews might lead you to think. It's not low res but not quite "retina" either. (Yes, my friend who owns the Vision Pro made sure to reset eye and head calibration and redo setup for me.)
Surprisingly, I did not notice any flicker in my peripheral vision from foveated rendering!
Despite using PWM OLED it did not feel like looking at iPhone OLED! This is probably because there is a dedicated screen per eye, as @Maxx was theorizing, so my eyes seemed to more intuitively know how to focus and I didn't get "the typical PWM strain".

BTW, Vision Pro's subpixel layout is decently closer to RGB, which is great because I vastly prefer RGB to the typical, uneven Diamond PenTile layout in OLED smartphones.
Not sure if temporal dithering is used in the visionOS UI, but I highly suspect it is (because Apple ColorSync…) What's great though is that the constantly moving background video feed actually did help reduce potential dithering strain. Since I'm always seeing natural motion in the background in sync with any tiny head movements, it's easier for my brain to relatively understand that still elements on the same screen should be processed as actually still.
Of course, a true 3D display like this prevents the issue that some bad 2D screens have where they "appear to have depth when they actually shouldn't". This screen actually does have depth, so flat objects appeared properly flat.
Temporal dithering is present in the screen stream when using Mac Virtual Display, almost hilariously so. The background of dark windows is obviously changing every split second or so, and text is literally twitching around at a magnitude that even someone with no sensitivity would notice LOL.

The funny thing is that I actually preferred this "so obvious it made me laugh" dithering to the usual macOS dithering, because it's NOT trying to convince my brain that it's static at all, and thus what my brain processes stays in sync with what my eyes see. Native visionOS apps don't seem to have this obvious flicker.

I hope that if Apple "fixes" this, they do it by removing dithering from Mac Virtual Display entirely, not by trying to make it "invisible" 🙂

Here is the absolute best feature about the Vision Pro:

Eye control. With default settings, the primary way to select what to click on Vision Pro is entirely through moving your eyes. I thought this would be a dealbreaker for me, because "bad screens" typically have a huge impact on my eye movement ability, but I am so happy to report that it is the opposite and almost therapeutic.

I tried desktop versions of websites with lots of tiny links, and even tried navigating around a complex web app (the web version of Visual Studio Code). Shockingly, I was totally able to click the right thing 90% of the time just by moving my eyes.
Because you have to move and focus your eyes correctly to even be able to click the thing you want, if you are using it and successfully navigating around, that was possible because your eyes did the right thing.

This means every time you interact with a UI element on the Vision Pro, it is literally training your eyes how to move better, and more in sync with your intentions.

I think this control method is THE reason why I had such a surprisingly comfortable Vision Pro experience, despite the use of PWM and (possibly) dithering.

You can also select letters on the virtual keyboard with just your eyes, which actually felt like a cool way to "exercise" darting my eyes around to precise locations. (I thought typing with my eyes like this would make me dizzy, but it surprisingly didn't!)

I actually came out feeling like I could control my eyes in the real world better, which is a really good sign that my theory that the Vision Pro might help "train my eyes" might actually be accurate. This is in contrast to typical "bad screens", which usually even make reality look worse for a few hours after using them.

I came out of the Vision Pro feeling pretty great with only some slight strain.

Of course, a custom "0 PWM, 0 FRC, 0 Dither" laptop or desktop setup definitely can still be more comfortable in the end and can offer wayyy more sharpness and clarity…

But the Vision Pro actually outclassed many "typical, unmodified modern displays" for me in comfort (including the rest of Apple's current lineup, LOL), which is awesome and something I didn't expect at all.

Just don't use the Mindfulness app! (or any other app that similarly blacks out the background)

degenerated_technology

No.

Apple always uses led backlight.

Donux

karthi3219 I doubt. Innovation is always going with a huge hype and attempt to impress at the core. Not sure how medical professionals would approve something that is contrary to what is considered healthy computer use, i.e. looking around time after time with different focuses, moving away to do quick exercise etc, using wired Ethernet instead of wifi. Let's not forget, manufacturers and designers of these products could not get it right monitor technology for simple reason - focus on cost at mass production.

Maxx

The reason why I'm mildly hopeful, is that we can avoid the problem by patching. So when there are 2 individual displays, that would be kinda the same as patching, not looking a the same flicker with both eyes

vegeta97

i honestly thought it would make it worse?

JTL

vegeta97 I concur. Also Apple Insider published an article expressing concern over the strobing being a medical concern.

vegeta97

JTL yep gonna stay away from that hing. Eink and RLCD for me please

phonky21

I would not recommend to get it if you already have problems with PWM and dithering. And I am skeptical of the very idea of all-around display, it may worsen already poor vision even more. Also it will definitely cause nausea, motion sickness and headache. The thing is too big and also has external battery which is a huge disadvantage

annv

Not related to eye-strain, but it might exacerbate the screen addiction issues even more compared to mobile devices. I'd personally stay away from it.

Clokwork

Hard to imagine OLED that close to the face is going to feel great, unless they are using AMOLED, but I haven't seen that stated anywhere.

Sunspark

Wow, that's an amazing review. Definitely cause for optimism for the development of the technology. It's a first generation product so they will continue to iterate on it. I've seen reviews where people complained about the weight, one guy solved it by finding a helmet where the cutout matched the vision pro and then it was comfortable for him.

reaganry

I passed on the demo, but Headsets is the place where development money is being spent trying to keep nerds from getting dizzy.

photon78s

https://ymcinema.com/2024/02/20/apples-most-loyal-customers-are-returning-their-vision-pro-mainly-due-to-eyestrain-and-headache/

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

photon78s This is interesting to know, at least for my Vision Pro experience though despite the PWM, it was more comfortable than anything else in Apple's current lineup of devices LOL… and the input method being eye control actually was a huge factor in helping the screen "make sense" to my brain. Honestly, using the Vision Pro was a lot more comfortable than using an OLED iPhone.

However, yep, a good custom display setup that's truly PWM and dithering free is still more comfortable than the Vision Pro for sure

languidicity

I’ve no idea what people imagine VR headsets actually are.

Strapping two bright, flickering, blue light emitting screens to your face centimetres away from your eyes and encompassing most of your field of view accompanied by half a kilo of extra weight stressing your head and neck muscles is unlikely to solve anything.