jordan

Have you tried using a cheap lossy video capture card (with chroma subsampling) or hdmi to usb converter and using OBS running on a safe win 1809 computer to view the unsafe computer running whatever bad gpu/driver and OS? The quality might be blurry but it might mask/alter the dithering so that it might be more physiologically tolerable? Perhaps remote in would be the better alternative.

I tried briefly with 1809 7i as the OBS computer connected a known dithering setup and it was blurry but this needs more experimentation as well.

      photon78s I have not but this is something that I have thought about and others too on the telegram group. I think one guy actually created his own box to output basic 8bpc using a Arduino alternative or something. I know some other people say that the old steam link box (not the software but the actual old steam link wireless box) has stopped eye strain for them which might be doing what you are saying with the capture card. Obviously the capture card method would be better instead of wireless. I know elgato has quite a few capture cards. I'm not really sure what the chroma stuff is tbh but maybe some sort of compression can help smooth things out

          jordan

          Chroma subsampling reduces the color information but that is just an example I gave for being lossy. The key idea is if trying some form of compression or lack of faithfully reproducing the dithering can help physiologically.

          UPerfect is generally responsive but I would be really surprised if they can have "true 10 bit" at that relatively low price.

              photon78s ohhh that makes sense I didn't know thats what it was. Could be something that could help maybe. I wonder how a 480Hz+ refresh rate monitor would be with dithering.

              I agree that's really cheap for true 10bit I bet it's 8+2frc. I mean if ViewSonic can't give us true 10bit (when advertised as true 10bit) then I doubt uperfect can.. but worth a shot I guess

                For reference here is what the 7i running 1809 iGPU with MS basic display adapter looks like under the microscope sampling a dark gradient area. All I see is the very high frequency camera noise flicker. Compare this with the other videos showing the slow motion alternating ramping of pixel brightness on the same panel but with latest discrete gpu drivers and newer OS.

                https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/xcvt48x8goqf7fzn2v6zb/7i-windows-1809-camera-noise-flicker.mp4?rlkey=f72s7ht9w0b02wu7415yaqhy5&dl=0

                jordan

                Interesting. Don't understand the direct3d connection...

                I am running T480s with latest linux mint connected via hdmi to usb to the 1809 7i (I got tired of the panel intermittent "inversion" flickering as discovered previously). In OBS on the 7i, I turned everything to monochromatic and played around with the brightness (rez is 1920x1080 at 60Hz which is the max this cheap converter can support). Seems promising with the scope so far. Their is a lot of latency but still faster than e-ink.

                https://ibb.co/pJKd2qS

                I can't find the original link to my capture device but it is very similar to this one:

                https://www.amazon.com/LinkBand-Capture-Camcorder-Streaming-Nintendo/dp/B089ZWX5MY/ref=pd_lpo_sccl_1/135-3936352-6877654?pd_rd_i=B089ZWX5MY&psc=1

                  photon78s ugh that's so frustrating. They are silently hurting us all even those who aren't on this forum. I'm sure so much people are affected and have no clue it's the screen. Probably not going to change until other company's start selling actual true 10bit or until people take legal actions.

                      https://safescreens.org/smartphones-and-social-media-harms/

                      They do mention eye damage and "digital eye strain" but still with myopic focus on blue light issues. Might be useful to know this at a later point.

                      I also don't think this will remain a "first world" problem for much longer. See adoption trends of smartphones for example. However, I don't know who is collecting rigorous data specific to health and screen technology issues.

                      Other intiatives:
                      https://www.change.org/p/apple-add-accessibility-options-to-reduce-eye-strain-and-support-vision-disability-sufferers

                      Research papers:

                      A Comparison of Seven Visual Fatigue Assessment Techniques In Three Data-Acquisition VDT Tasks

                      https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1518/001872098779649247
                      They mention "adaptive displays" in response to flicker sensitivity changes in people over time and "workload".

                      Digital eye strain: prevalence, measurement and amelioration

                      https://bmjophth.bmj.com/content/3/1/e000146?int_source=trendmd&int_medium=cpc&int_campaign=usage-042019#ref-26

                      Video display terminal use and dry eye: preventive measures and future perspectives

                      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/aos.15105

                      "Video display terminal (VDT) use reduces blink rates and increases incomplete blinks, leading to tear film instability and ocular inflammation, promoting DED."

                      Working in the Metaverse: What Are the Risks? A Rapid Review of the Literature

                      https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4731115

                      Just showing flicker have effects positive or negative.

                      Gamma frequency sensory stimulation in mild probable Alzheimer’s dementia patients: Results of feasibility and pilot studies

                      https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0278412

                      Recently, we discovered that non-invasive entrainment of gamma frequency oscillations using light flickering at 40Hz (Gamma ENtrainment Using Sensory stimuli, GENUS) reduced amyloid load and induced glial response in the visual cortex of AD model mice, effectively attenuating AD-related pathology

                      photon78s is display link what is used for dell docks for example? One person here has said that connecting a monitor to their dock helps

                          jordan

                          You are right about linux mint. I connected the T480s via hdmi to the LG and I can't see dithering at least with my scope and camera. The monitor is only running at 30hz so if temporal dithering is occuring, I should be able to see it with the high speed camera easily. However, using a usb-c to displayport cable still has dithering. I am very happy with being able to use the LG even if not at high refresh rate. The hdmi cable I am using is the one that came with the LG monitor (it says 8k 60hz on s only running at 30hz so if temporal dithering is occuring, I should be able to see it with the high speed camera easily or even with normal speed camera (half the refresh rate dither). However, usiUpdate: I do see some very high frequency pixel flicker in slow motion video but it is clearly different than when I test this monitor with the usb-c to display port cable. The HDMI output on the T480s is also bandwidth limited which relates with discoveries in the the mac stillcolor discussion.
                          ng a usb-c to displayport cable still has dithering. I am very happy with being able to use the LG even if not at high refrethe cable). My T480s only has Intel UHD Graphics 620. It does not have the Nvidia MX150 discrete gpu as some other versions do. monitor

                          Also, I discovered my Nikon camera has hdmi out that also does not seem to cause dithering on the LG monitor which is 8 bit + FRC. The Nikon's output sets the monitor at 30hz. Again, I could not find anything with the scope unlike Win 11 at 60hz on the 7i. I was viewing smintome photos, and it was the first time in a while that the photos looked "stable".

                          Update: I still see some very high frequency pixel flicker in slow motion video but it is clearly different than when I test this monitor with the usb-c to display port cable. The HDMI output on the T480s is also bandwidth limited which relates with discoveries in the the mac stillcolor discussion.

                              photon78s oh wow that's great! I'm almost thinking Linux might end up being the best long term solution. There's actually a way to get displays to support 24hz when they don't by default, Maybe that's the best way to test for dither if it happens at the half of refresh rate. I think low Hz 10-15hz could cause photosensitive epilepsy in people that have it btw.

                                  jordan

                                  I think I've disabled or modified the dithering at one level as with @aiaf with using bandwidth limited hdmi port or cable to a modern and demanding 4k monitor and what I'm still seeing is some kind of pixel inversion or similar (TCON generated dithering flicker?) on the LG. The still existing flicker is still fast when played back in slow motion so it is not at low 15hz (half refresh rate of 30hz). Using the computer, the mouse cursor lags as expected for 30hz refresh rate.

                                  The only way to know health wise is to test for yourself which type of pixel flicker is more comfortable. Even with 100% no dithering, generated by the computer or monitor, you still have to deal with pixel inversion unless you go OLED or other types with all their own different set of limitations and issues.

                                  https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/q13awt/t480s_4k_over_hdmi_or_usbc_or_thunderbolt/?rdt=50463
                                  Yes, the T480s hdmi output is limited so one could use it for positive effect.

                                      dev