Lauda89 I tryed a lot of monitor flicker free that killed my eyes.

What are your symptoms? How long do they take to develop? In particular, do you get immediate neck tension? How long does it take to recover?
I remember the iPhone X gave problems to many, and on forums fingers were pointed at the 240 Hz PWM. If you can stand that, it looks like PWM is not your problem?
However, I do not recall all members' stories and issues. I guess you know that a flicker-free monitor can give troubles if connected to "bad" hardware, do not you? That is something I was not aware of until I found this forum an year ago, so I am not the expert for sure.

I can use most computers but I can't find a smartphone that does not make huge damages. I owned only one so far, which worked beautifully until an year ago. I had no chance but to re-sell the other three phones I recently bought. Impossible to use them.
I too do not think PWM is my problem. In the recent past I used devices at very, very low brightness, and could watch as long as I wanted. I am clueless. And demoralized. I can only say, the newer the technology, the worse.

    AGI Sorry to hear this. Strange. I can recall a forum post where a person bought multiple iPhone 4s and said that only 1 of 3 (do not remember the exact number) iPhones worked for him. Maybe Apple uses different screens for their phones like for their laptops?

        deepflame I did not read that post, but I think someone, probably @KM, mentioned he had two nominally identical monitors, only one giving eyestrain. Of course when connected to the same computer.
        I have no idea what display specs are. One would expect them to be pretty stringent, given that soon it will be cheaper to buy a second-hand car than a new iPhone.
        However, since almost all modern phones induce strain within seconds, I think it is not a faulty component but the technology which my body cannot cope with.
        Yesterday night I got rid of the iPhone. At least iPhones have a lot of sex-appeal so it is not so difficult to sell them. I placed an order for an "open box" OnePlus 3. I will try Paranoid Android. That is my last chance. Otherwise I will forget about smartphones and go ahead with my Nokia 3310.

            deepflame I've read the same about my ipad pro 10.5:
            https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/eye-fatigue-on-my-new-ipp-10-5.2051665/page-8
            "I wound up returning my first IPP 10.5 after a few days due to eye fatigue and headaches. Read somewhere else on these forums of others having the same issue, blaming it on faulty screens on random devices. Picked up another IPP 10.5 a month later to test that theory and have enjoyed the newer one from day 1. Have had it for over 5 weeks now without any eye or headache problems. Perhaps yours has a bad screen and simply needs to be returned and replaced?"

            I would try to sell my IPP 10.5 e rebuy another one but i risk to lose over 200 euro..

              14 days later

              AGI I think someone, probably @KM, mentioned he had two nominally identical monitors, only one giving eyestrain. Of course when connected to the same computer.

              ok, thanks, that would support the theory. Maybe the manufacturer used different panels in their screens. This is also the case for Dell in some models. Do you remember if he used the same connectors? I currently feel better when using an old VGA cable with a Thinkpad W530 (NVidia Kepler GPU running Linux).

              • AGI replied to this.

                  deepflame Do you remember if he used the same connectors?

                  No, but I am sure @KM will tell :-)

                    I used the same connectors, HDMI, and the only differences I found were that the monitors' backlight colors and flicker frequencies were slightly different. The findings didn't really help.

                    I tried taking off the lcd screen from the backlight and using it as a transparent display which seems to help a lot. I have a feeling that looking at what the eye perceives to be a light source for an extended period of time is a large part of eye strain, at least for me. This seems to correlate with the other posts on this forum about overloading/overstimulating the eye with light. The reflected light off the wall that is illuminating the lcd panel is much less harsh on my eyes. I also use the uvex sct orange glasses to block out anything in the blue spectrum or lower. Interestingly the raw color temperature of the backlight leds, according to my colormunki, are around 14000 kelvin, almost purple tinted. The lcd panel is also easier to focus on, which also coincides with many people having focus issues with their eyes on here.
                    Here's a picture of my ghetto fabulous setup. HP22es monitor. https://imgur.com/a/x8wqSgc

                      deepflame

                      Ok, for some reason my beloved Windows 7 machine started to dither again and thus made it unusable for me.
                      So here is my current setup which turns out to be even better than the Windows 7 machine I had before. Maybe it is the screen, maybe it is the VGA connection, not sure.

                      FWIW:

                      • Lenovo Thinkpad W530 with NVidia Quadro K1000M (Kepler based GPU)
                      • Ubuntu 19.04 with Nouveau driver and dithering turned off via "xrandr" for all applicable outputs
                      • Dell 2407WFP CCFL backlit screen (S-PVA panel) connected via VGA cable

                      So in this environment I hope to be able to control everything. I still cannot open VisualStudio Code or Firefox because of some weird OpenGL mode (I guess) but this seems better than uncontrollable Windows were everything is proprietary software.

                      I just fear upgrading some graphics libs at the moment and think I will get in touch with people at freedesktop.org to help me nail down the app specific problems (maybe there is a tool to output OpenGL state or something).

                      • hpst replied to this.
                      • KM likes this.

                          deepflame Ubuntu 19.04 with Nouveau driver and dithering turned off via "xrandr" for all applicable outputs

                          I think I asked you this somewhere else, but is the internal display still ok for you as well? The TN/LED panel?

                          What exact xrandr settings/commands did you use? When I tried altering those before it either did nothing at all or broke things. Though to be fair I was trying to alter an Intel integrated device not one with Nvidia and Nouveau so that might be why.

                          If dithering does end up being a primary root problem, and Quadro in general allows disabling (some logic to that possibility given their application), then this could be huge. It would open up many laptops and desktops to us. I think @JTL has had good experiences with a Quadro as well if I am not mixing stories. Every other time I felt that twinge of hope was I was disappointed so cannot muster much atm...but its something.

                          *Also just noticed the Firefox comment. I have often wondered how much of a culprit the browsers are since we spend so much time in them. A device might otherwise be ok but we don't notice since a browser or particular application triggers us.

                              hpst I think I asked you this somewhere else, but is the internal display still ok for you as well? The TN/LED panel?

                              The internal panel is better with dithering disabled but I cannot stand its LED light. So for me, I need to have the external screen attached.

                              hpst What exact xrandr settings/commands did you use?

                              Nothing "special" really. Just the settings that are actually described in this thread: https://ledstrain.org/d/413-disable-color-dither-method-collection
                              For me the line was like this xrandr --output LVDS-1 --set "dithering mode" off (LVDS-1 being the internal screen).

                              hpst If dithering does end up being a primary root problem

                              One primary root cause I think, yes. But not only. I also have CCFL backlit TN and IPS panels here and can say that the S-PVA panel is much easier on the eyes/brain.
                              Also the VGA cable makes a difference even though I turn off dithering for the miniDP port.

                              I think at the end it is currently any kind of weird flicker and LED light for me. I will get this photosensitive epilepsy test I think in the future as well to get this ruled out or confirmed. But this does not explain the LED discomfort I feel with any LED bulb so far.

                              hpst I think @JTL has had good experiences with a Quadro as well

                              Yes, you can read his story here: https://ledstrain.org/d/337-nvidia-quadro-k4000

                                      Interesting info from Wikipedia re S-PVA:

                                      "Less expensive PVA panels often use dithering and FRC, whereas super-PVA (S-PVA) panels all use at least 8 bits per color component and do not use color simulation methods.[citation needed]S-PVA also largely eliminated off-angle glowing of solid blacks and reduced the off-angle gamma shift. Some high-end Sony BRAVIA LCD TVs offer 10-bit and xvYCC color support, for example, the Bravia X4500 series. S-PVA also offers fast response times using modern RTC technologies.[citation needed] "

                                      So S-PVA seems to positively affect two points discussed here often. Dithering and response time. Of course that doesn't mean a GPU cannot dither, just that the displays don't use it natively. But I guess since this is a laptop panel we are talking about the GPU is in charge not some external monitor's software.

                                      This is one of the PCs which I can use fine. Before I list the others, could someone tell me if the info below are useful / all it is needed? Thanks!

                                      Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-4160 CPU @ 3.60GHz (4 CPUs), 3.6GHz
                                      Operating System: Windows 7 Professional 64-bit (6.1, Build 7601) Service Pack 1 (7601.win7sp1_gdr.151230-0600)
                                      Card name: Intel(R) HD Graphics 4400
                                      Monitor Model: DELL E2416H
                                      Native Mode: 1920 x 1080(p) (60.000Hz)
                                      Current Mode: 1920 x 1080 (32 bit) (60Hz)

                                        AGI Thanks for listing. Think this is very interesting.
                                        You could leave out the detailed CPU info but would be great to add "connection to the screen" like VGA, HDMI, ... ,graphics driver version and if possible panel type of the display (but interested people could also find it online).

                                        • AGI replied to this.

                                            deepflame Thanks for your prompt notes, and pardon my non-expert questions. I used dxdiag to pull info out. Does Driver Version: 10.18.14.4280 sound correct for the graphics driver? How about the panel type of the display? I can't find it in the dxdiag file...
                                            I had thought about the connection to screen after reading recent posts...I assume "visual inspection" is the only way?
                                            Thanks!

                                            EDIT: Are the below details useful? What is the output type listed under Display Devices?
                                            Monitor Id: DELA0C9
                                            Output Type: HD15

                                                AGI

                                                AGI Does Driver Version: 10.18.14.4280 sound correct for the graphics driver?

                                                I think so. You may confirm this in the graphics driver settings itself. Usually the version is mentioned there as well.

                                                AGI How about the panel type of the display?

                                                Have not found a place in any OS as well. Usually this is found on the internet in spec sheets. If this is hard to find, it's ok. We can also look for it 🙂

                                                AGI I assume "visual inspection" is the only way?

                                                Hmm, I don't have my Windows machine up and running atm also because it gives me strain. Do you mean with which frequency the screen is driven or?

                                                AGI EDIT: Are the below details useful? What is the output type listed under Display Devices?
                                                Monitor Id: DELA0C9
                                                Output Type: HD15

                                                Not for me at least.

                                                • AGI replied to this.

                                                            deepflame Hmm, I don't have my Windows machine up and running atm also because it gives me strain. Do you mean with which frequency the screen is driven or?

                                                            Nope, sorry. I took dx_diag files from multiple computers I have been using. They are all located in different offices / different buildings. Since I did not check on the type of connection PC-to-screen, I was wondering whether I can recover that info from the log files. But I doubt it is the case. No worries, I will have a few walks :-)
                                                            Thanks also on the rest!

                                                            EDIT: in one dx_diag I read Output Type: HDMI and I know the connection is HDMI, so that info should be in the log too...

                                                                deepflame I still cannot open VisualStudio Code or Firefox because of some weird OpenGL mode (I gues

                                                                What is your speculation as to why OpenGL modes would make things usable vs not, especially on an otherwise OK setup?

                                                                    dev