async ohh, I returned this monitor after an hour I got it lol. It gave me craziest eye strain in a while after just 10 minutes, and till the end of the day I was done 🙁

I keep DSC off and run at 120hz using DP on 4k 27 inch LG 27gp95r-b which still gives me strain. It is also nano ips. So-called Next generation of display technology. Not sure these approaches have improved consideration for eye health and many seem to be not viable for other reasons.

Some new stuff even mentions more dithering:

From tftcentral

This is a new feature for META 2.0. Detail Enhancer technology which “helps articulate subtle differences in natural brightness through pixel dimming for both light and dark areas to achieve richer image expression. Using dithering technology for every pattern position based on OLED pixel dimming technology it enhances colour accuracy and apparently also widens colour gamut. This allows the delivery of images with full-range HDR detail, accurately representing objects with distinct colours, true to the creator’s original intent.”

    photon78s Does it use PWM? As I see its utilizing FRC. Did you try using 8bit only mode with BetterDisplay ?

      madmozg

      This is what I measured at both 0% and 100% brightness on white background. The flicker is very subtle as I need to use 20dB or more gain on the detector to measure this. Not the worse but not the best. My T480 B140QAN02.0 panel is better in this department.

      I don't have mac anymore to test the new version software.

      photon78s
      Have you experimented with QDEF backlight LCD's? Or perhaps even WOLED / QD-OLED? (you probably know it's flaws, just mentioned them for the sake of it)

        qb74

        Not yet. If I do, I will do my usual testing (oscilloscope, flicker, microscope pixel videos, color spectrum, polarization) and post.

        4 days later
        5 days later

        Hey guys, I've just received a new monitor to test Dell U4025QW. It's a 40'' 5K display 8bit + FRC. Its not using mini-LED, looks like it's a dc-dimming mostly. 8bit + FRC tho. Going to do some tests, hopefully betterdisplay will help me with FRC. Let me know if you would like me to test anything specific.

          async

          I can't find any flicker yet. I will post results today/tomorrow. Initial impression is interesting, 8bit forced with BetterDisplay, but I still feel some weird tension in my back of the head, and after an hour of using this monitor I feel like my eyes are tired. I didn't test this monitor with my microscope yet. But I want to mention how good this monitor is 🙁 Colors are fantastic, 120hz, coding and color grading is amazing. Text is crisp. Tried to play few games and its really good, well you can't play CSGO on pro level haha, but its good if you want to spent some time with your friends and also you need a pretty good PC for it.

          Quick update on Dell U4025QW connected with:

          • Macbook Pro M3: At first it felt fine, but after a while it started to give an eye strain. Tried with BetterDisplay 8/10bit. Nothing helps.
          • Macbook 2019 Intel: I tried in the evening next day after MBP M3 and it was totally fine, not eye strain at all. But next day it started to give me slight eye strain and then headaches. Tried with BetterDisplay 8/10bit, nothing changed. Tried to disable font smooth, will test more.
          • Windows 11 3070 Ti: Still gives me similar eye strain as Intel macbook, I'm able to work/play for few hours but then I want to give my eyes some rest and small headaches are coming as well. Slept bad during the night because of that. I didn't use any specific apps to disable dithering, just regular nvidia settings to force 8bit.

          I did testing with opple, there is no flicker at all. Solid backlight at any brightness and at any color or grayscale.

          With microscope I was able to detect dithering with MBP M3 connected on darker gray color. On bright colors its very hard to notice any dithering with 120/240fps. Dithering is present no matter if betterdisplay set to 8 or 10 bit.

          If someone could share any good method how to disable dithering on Win11, that would be awesome, so I can test it.

          After using this monitor for 3 days, I feel some tiredness at the back of my eyes, tired nape and small headaches.

            madmozg Try to disable variable refresh rate to see if that fixes the flickering. Also if you didn't check all the settings then it might be overdrive or similar. At that resolution / framerate it no doubt uses display stream compression. No idea if DSC is as lossless as they say, but I guess there is no way around it.

            a month later

            Returned Dell U4025QW after a month of testing. Conclusion:

            • Works fine with my 3070 Ti and latest Win11 version. Set nvidia to 8bit and had no issues with basic windows stuff.
            • BetterDisplay was not able to help with Intel macs to use 8bit on this monitor. Everytime i switch to 8bit with edid monitor still was showing 30bpc.
            • BetterDisplay was indeed switching from 10bit to 8bit with Mac mini M2 and Macbook Pro M3, but I still had eyestrain because mac silicons are still sending dithered signal or pixel inversion, and its even more aggressive than intel macs. On dell monitor it was showing 24bpc.

            Great monitor if you are working on windows PC. No PWM at all, its like an old dc dimming, I think it black panel LED or something like that. Blacks are really good, I also played some games on it, it was great. But my main work is on mac so to keep this expensive monitor just to run PC I didn't want to.

            I ended up with the glossy version of the Apple Pro Display XDR without the grainy nano texture. The clarity without any screen covering is insanely good with the high DPI, true 10bit and really high SDR brightness. I've mostly adapted again to the MBP M1 Max and the and iPhone 14 Pro Max now, and this display is definitely waaay better than those. I'll see if it stays this nice, but so far so good.

            I decided to not research any eye strain while using this screen, not take any measurements, and not play around with any settings unless strictly needed, as I really want it to work and there obviously is some psychological component to all this as well. Currently running stock settings / profile with just Stillcolor.

            There are very few tests of this display anywhere, and few places to actually see it in action. Few or no eye strain reports as well. For those that have the option and can handle the financials I'll advice taking a look at it. The second hand price isn't too bad. In my opinion it is nothing like the Studio Display that just felt like a Macbook.

              async wow great choice! Keep us updated! Very interesting.

              async In my opinion it is nothing like the Studio Display that just felt like a Macbook.

              So you've tried the Studio Display and the XDR is better?

              I decided to not research any eye strain while using this screen, not take any measurements, and not play around with any settings unless strictly needed, as I really want it to work and there obviously is some psychological component to all this as well. Currently running stock settings / profile with just Stillcolor.

              Understood, but I'd be interested in some measurements of the XDR at some point, considering professional reviewers haven't exactly gotten their grubby hands on it. 😆

                JTL Understandably. Used it extensively and have experienced zero eye strain. Do note that my issues is currently much milder than many here, and things have taken a step in the right direction lately. Still, it's exceptional to work at I would advice others to give it a try.

                I mostly stayed away from my Macbook while I adapt and are running both at the native resolution with the same PPI, as I have a feeling that constantly seeing the same interface elements at different sizes can mess up accomodation. ChatGPT seemed to agree that there are higher order processes in the visual pathways that use matched patterns to assist accomodation, and that mixing PPI in theory can cause focus issues. Might be a relevant track for others to look into as well. @DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

                The little I used the Macbook now the screen is garbage compared to the Pro display, but doesn't really strain as easily.

                  async

                  How are the miniLEDs in the Pro Display XDR? I hope it works for you long term as well!

                    photon78s the SDR goes really bright compared to the Macbook. Didn't really try the XDR mode thru Lunar or BetterDisplay. I have no need for any more brightness than what is available with SDR. Can't say the same for the Macbook, where I frequently use extended brightness in the daytime.

                    It has pretty few dimming zones compared to newer mini leds. I think that can be beneficial, and unlike the Macbook I don't feel like I've staring at a led at all. This hellish glowing text that happens on the Macbook is also pretty much absent for me.

                    Also I don't feel annoyed by the 60 hz as it feels rather smooth. On the Macbook however it feels like everything is stuttering if I limit it to 60.

                    There is a technical white paper that has a lot of details on the backlight. https://www.apple.com/pro-display-xdr/pdf/Pro_Display_White_Paper_Feb_2020.pdf

                    Also the combo of glossy display and high dpi at true retina means that everything is sharp at all times, which at least feels like it gets rid of a lot of strain. My Mateview 28 in comparison looks like it has constant flickering rainbow sand on top of the display due to the anti-reflective coating with a grainy texture.

                    async as I have a feeling that constantly seeing the same interface elements at different sizes can mess up accomodation

                    this is mostly true, on most screens I deal with this issue, it can also affect how you focus on real-life objects after using the screen too

                    BUT… in my experience, it seems to be VERY connected to the issue with the false 3D effect which frusturatingly affects so many screens (even as far back as the 2000s, I still feel that effect + see super obvious "forced oversharpening" white halos on a NEC CCFL TN from 2005 connected to a "safe" PC outputting 16bpp…)


                    the reason why I know this is that on my single truly "safe" screen, LG LP133WD2-SLB1 on IdeaPad Yoga 13, I can set the UI zoom level to any size I want, even super huge, and the distance I focus remains essentially the same. the UI elements focus just as easily.

                    for example, i can set this page to max zoom, and it's still easy to jump between the massive web page text and regular-sized taskbar without strain.

                    however, this laptop is the ONLY backlit screen that I can do this on.

                    the only other screens that work like this for me are e-ink — but this laptop panel is a WLED-backlit IPS (that even has some mild PWM and pixel inversion!) yet somehow feels entirely different from ANY other IPS/TN/VA/OLED I've used — including a few other LG IPS I've tried

                    on every other backlit screen so far, even a few that I deem "usable" or "mostly flat", the moment I increase the size or a large icon appears… I can feel pressure on the eyes changing and a feeling of "increasing closeness" or having to "learn to focus differently" on different-sized elements, like you are saying. but not on the Yoga 13


                    TLDR: yep this 100% affects lots of screens, but I have "living evidence" that it's actually possible for at least one backlit screen to not have this issue.

                    i wish i knew why. my only theory is that I see very little "post-processing / colors bleeding into nearby pixels / additional edge enhancement" compared to what I notice in others

                      dev