kgharvey I personally did not have rigorous enough testing structure so I can confidently say its not placebo. What definitely helps, is instead of trying to find a fix of eye strain during a work session, is - simly taking a break. Also lagom test gradients absolutely do not change before and after windows 10 or 11 for me. But my GPU is specifically on the top list when it comes to dithering.

And this statement is just funny to me:
"Software to change the dithering configuration of Intel and AMD CPUs in notebooks to improve the image quality of the built-in display." - Ohh realy, you buy a machine which utilizes temporal dithering which by itself required a lot of labour and technology money investment to develp, and all of the sudden you disable it and it improves quality. So what a hell vendors are interested? - Eye strain? Sorry, this is absolue rubbish.

"I have checked behavior with Intel Iris Xe Graphics, Intel UHD Graphics 620, Intel HD Graphics 515, Intel Iris Pro Graphics 5200, Intel HD Graphics 4000, AMD Radeon Vega 8 Graphics and AMD Radeon 680M." - Ohh, thank you very much for checking for me. I guess I do not need to think for myself anymore. Maybe next time include actual objective measures that have been used. Heh, I have checked 🙂

  • JTL replied to this.

      jordan

      Is there a way I can check the bits easily?

      Unfortunately, there is no utility for displaying the state of Intel iGPU/GPU registers on Windows. You need to compile and debug the ditherig application in Visual Studio. During debugging, you can check the values of the pipe misc register in the source code. The variable OLD will contain its value https://github.com/WhisperingWindLinux/ditherig/blob/2fb5b3a3b8edc405c3427757e1213cc9fcafbc9f/ditherig/ditherig.cpp#L624.

      I don't know how this will work if two supported iGPUs and GPUs are detected simultaneously, so it's better to leave only the necessary one active.

        jordan

        And what would the bits be for non dithering ? I think you told me in the past but I totally forgot.

        The register value needs to be converted to binary format. The fourth bit (counting from right to left, starting from zero) is responsible for enabling/disabling dithering on Intel iGPU/GPU. For example, in 00000000000000000000000000010000, it is equal to 1, meaning dithering is enabled. In 00000000000000000000000000000000, it is zero, meaning dithering is disabled.

        Link to the Intel manual where you can find information on registers (including PIPE_MISC, which we worked with above): Intel Manual, page 688.

        speaking about motherboard firmware, how would I know if a Intel arc dgpu is set to not dither?

        The dGPU has its own VBIOS, and the default settings is flashed into it rather than the motherboard's firmware.

        Whether there is dithering or not, in the case of a dGPU, depends on the firmware of the dGPU itself and the driver. My ASRock ARC A770 uses the same driver as yours, so we can conclude that the driver does not enable dithering, as it is absent for me by default when working in Windows 11. This means only differences in the firmware of the dGPU remain. To check this, you would need to use the method I described above, if you need to verify it specifically in Windows.

        P.S. About Win10, I can't say for sure; I did all my experiments in Win11. But now I use ARC only in Linux; I hardly use Windows.

            • JJTL

            • Post #9

            Donux "Software to change the dithering configuration of Intel and AMD CPUs in notebooks to improve the image quality of the built-in display." - Ohh realy, you buy a machine which utilizes temporal dithering which by itself required a lot of labour and technology money investment to develp, and all of the sudden you disable it and it improves quality. So what a hell vendors are interested? - Eye strain? Sorry, this is absolue rubbish.

            If they really are Japanese, it could be a miscommunication due to the language barrier. So I wouldn't read too much into it.

                JTL Yes I thought about it, but we should always have at least 1x test. And if this is lagom gradient test:

                1. Having app installed and lauched with default settings (turn off all dithering) vs. having app not installed at all and obviously not executed = Produces no visual ditherece in lagom test on chrome browser (either with force sRGB or not flag, and with hardware acceleration ON)
                2. Once app is installed and if you deliverately set to temporal dithering = It does produce lagon gradient test slight image flicker, but not really to the gradient bands, those kind of stay the same. So test wise it fails again, if we accept that test is all about gradient bands.

                So my conclusion app either is outdated with modern software on old hardware (inc. latest drivers), or vendors have pushed themselves settings through firmware or newest drivers that limit flicker from dithering technologies.

                I may be however posted something else and claimed something else before, and this is an issue with subjective judgement. You set something, you got excited, only to find that eye strain always comes back.

                • JTL replied to this.

                    WhisperingWind I'm not quite sure how to do the visual studio thing but thanks for letting me know that Info! Which win11 build were you using ? I'm assuming the Linux you use is just the latest Ubuntu with the modified kernel you posted about? (6bpc dithering disabled one)

                        jordan

                        Which win11 build were you using ?

                        Windows 11 23H2

                        I'm assuming the Linux you use is just the latest Ubuntu with the modified kernel you posted about? (6bpc dithering disabled one)

                        I'm currently using Linux with my TV only, which has a true 8-bit panel, so I'm using ARC in 8-bit mode.

                        Now I have returned to macOS as my main system because my work is closely related to it. So for now, my PC with Linux serves as an expensive TV set-top box 🙂

                            jordan

                            Temporal dithering strains my eyes, so I turn it off. I use an external monitor and Stillcolor to disable dithering. In this setup, MBP M1 is comfortable for the eyes.

                              This thread is - ditherig.exe on Windows 11 24H2. Not Linux, not apple, but windows and specifically ditherig.exe application.

                              • JJTL

                              • Post #16

                              Donux Yes I thought about it, but we should always have at least 1x test. And if this is lagom gradient test:

                              I think just "eyeballing" static test patterns may lead to wrong conclusions.

                                  JTL Yes, but this is kind of implicit agreement between most of dithering testers that gradient test is the most accessable. Of course, I wish I had this super fast camera, then this would be a no brainer. And I probably would be able to share all test variations and tell exactly how it is. But right now, really, I am and most other people I assume, are touching various parts of the elephant while being blindfolded. I personally struggle to understand, why I feel fatigue over time on windows 10 with or without dithering.exe, which on windows 10 I assume has best chance to work (and older versions). But I do not feel fatique when using windows 11, but that tension in the eyes and forehead.

                                    Today I have switched back from windows 11, to windows 10. Ditherig.exe was not installed. And it feels so much easier than windows 11. Will test for a while without ditherig.exe and then maybe later install it. One thing I would avoid on windows 11 and windows 10 - not to install those windows optional drivers where you need to go and explicitly select. These change something and cause eye strain for me on my X1 lenovo. After doing it one time, I will never ever install anything from that list.

                                    • DDonux

                                      • Post #19
                                      • Edited

                                      And have to report back and say I had to switch back to newest windows 11 with all the stuff installed. Windows 10 feels good for a while, but culminates in brain fog and other weird energy drain, fatique symthoms. I do not understand why, but rather use windows 11 with slight strain (not too big, just slight tension), instead of windows 10. It is actually possible that brain has associated windows 10 with some events in life, previous work, or just familiarity, which makes it "feel good" reward when using this OS, but in reality, its not actually really good. Ditherig.exe does make changes to rendering, so it works. But I can not test it by producing dithered image signal, probably would need to spend more time in order to get to it.

                                      So as you can see, I am just a ginny pig just most of you, trying to figure it out X * Y * Z factors = Y1,2,3...x (symthoms). To figure it out without technical testing, would need to record a lot of data over a period of time by multiple people. But this would be prone to errors, as it is really not isolated environment.

                                      WhisperingWind This is absolutely fascinating and I'm glad I stumbled on this. I have an Intel Arc A750 Limited Edition and I have found that on a specific 1080p monitor it feels better than other monitors that are 2k/4k IPS/VA etc. The point is that I still feel a bit of brain fog after about an hour of use. From your experience with Intel Arc GPUs, do you think the new B580 that everyone is talking about would make of a difference or is the architecture used in the GPU as well as the drivers basically the same as to induce dithering or other stuff? I've basically shut off everything I can think of that would enable dithering in Windows 11, and I think ditherig kinda helps? But not 100%. Before spending a bunch of money on a GPU I can't return, I'd be curious to dig a bit deeper. Maybe I can try out Linux on that specific GPU + monitor. I have yet to have any luck with Linux, but do you have a recommended distro + DE?

                                          whystrainwhy I have an Intel Arc A750 Limited Edition and I have found that on a specific 1080p monitor

                                          Can you send gpu-z main page screenshot, (to compare vbios version etc), windows build name / driver version + specific settings used, monitor + cable used, motherboard name + bios version?

                                          @WhisperingWind Hi, could you also share same data, to compare it with WSW ? Very interesting, whats difference between your equipments…

                                            From your experience with Intel Arc GPUs, do you think the new B580 that everyone is talking about would make of a difference or is the architecture used in the GPU as well as the drivers basically the same as to induce dithering or other stuff?

                                            I believe that it won't get worse, but it won't get better either.

                                            I've basically shut off everything I can think of that would enable dithering in Windows 11, and I think ditherig kinda helps?

                                            I think if the vendor of your graphics card changed the VBIOS and enabled dithering by default, then Ditherig should disable it. Since the format of control registers for enabling/disabling dithering has remained unchanged for a long time. It is only necessary to make ARC recognized as an Intel iGPU of the latest generations that supports Ditherig.

                                            Maybe I can try out Linux on that specific GPU + monitor. I have yet to have any luck with Linux, but do you have a recommended distro + DE?

                                            At the moment, only on my TV, Windows and Linux do not cause eye strain. The latest Ubuntu X11 work for me.

                                            Hi, could you also share same data, to compare it with WSW ? Very interesting, whats difference between your equipments…

                                            ASRock Arc A770 Phantom Gaming 16GB OC https://ibb.co/yFKrkhYX

                                            Unnamed HDMI 2.0 cable, 3 meters.

                                            Motherboard https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-MASTER-G2-Edition-rev-10#kf

                                            BIOS F8 (Mar 15, 2019) https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-MASTER-G2-Edition-rev-10/support#support-dl-bios

                                            Kingston Fury 3200MHz 32 Gb DDR4 RAM (4x8Gb)

                                            CPU 9900K

                                            specific settings used

                                            All graphics settings are set to default (Windows, Linux).

                                            There is no ReBAR support in the BIOS (even in the latest BIOS version for my motherboard).

                                              WhisperingWind There is no ReBAR support in the BIOS (even in the latest BIOS version for my motherboard).

                                              I can update BIOS in my z390d / z390ud (same is your, 2019 year old) to new one which support re-bar. But I am afraid to make it worse, no possibility to revert it back

                                              Btw, how your A770 works without issues with intel gen 9 and no re-bar active? I found it is main requirement (with win10 21h2 minimum, 10 gen intel, re-bar)

                                                  simplex

                                                  ARC can work with 9th generation CPUs without ReBar, but this leads to a drop in GPU performance. Additionally, I observe artifacts in Windows when playing videos in the browser. However, since I use Linux and don't play games, I don't have issues with this configuration.

                                                    dev