New development

fgrise

Hi all,

I haven't been active on here for a while, as my issues basically resolved after ditching the MacBook Pro 16 back in 2020. A couple years ago, I did also upgrade from an iPhone 8 to an iPhone 13 Pro without any issues at all (just to add some context). I am still using my 7 yr old Dell laptop.

However, a couple weeks ago, I was given a new office at work. Immediately upon sitting down I started feeling really uncomfortable. I told my office mate and we moved the desks around, trying to get the only window to be close to a 90 degree angle from my desk. I thought it helped a little, and although I have been able to work a few hours here and there in that office, last week things got worse. I started getting headaches and feeling nauseous after being there for 2-3 hours. I have been closing the blinds from the window, since somehow the (sun)light coming off the window irritates me. The lights were off as well so it can't really be the overhead lights. I went home after that episode but the nausea lingered for several more hours, and I only felt better the next day after a good night's sleep.

This office is smaller (not sure if that is important) and the walls are white (as opposed to a light blue in my previous office), but with some type of roughness onto them, and I am wondering if that could be the culprit. This morning, after being rested from not being in the office for 3 days, I started feeling pressure on my temples, and some kind of light numbness on my scalp with a hint of nausea to come. I moved back to my old office for the rest of the day and although I feel a little better, the feeling is still lingering to some extent.

I am trying to understand what could be the common denominator between the MacBook and the new office? I always thought the MacBook issue was related to a certain inability of focusing correctly on the screen. But the office? I am having a hard time finding an explanation. What makes it even more interesting is that my setup is not even great in my old office. The window is behind my back and gives off some amount of glare on my laptop screen - but this has not bothered me at all for the last few years. In the new office, there is no glare at all and the setup is quite better. White walls will reflect more light, though, and that's my only lead but I can't really ask my department to paint the walls just to test out that hypothesis.

I am quite at a loss. Any idea?

simplex

fgrise Any idea?

Interior lightning has impact, but more impactly is some software/hardware or driver updates

But could you say, is it some attention change last time? If you work hard, you can ignore some headaches dut to overloads or deadlines, can office seat change gives you more relax working enviroment where you can feel all uncomfortable things?

ocean10

fgrise

When did this start for you? While I don't sound exactly similar to you (for example, I can't even come close to using an iPhone 13 without immediate symptoms) something happened toward the end of May where even my previously "safe" computer (9 year old Lenovo T450s on Windows 10 docked with two old HP Elitedisplay E221s) started giving me severe burning eyestrain. Previously my symptoms on "bad" devices seemed more neurological (dizziness, feeling of unease, warmth, nausea, pressure). This felt more like actual pain in the eyes. Since then I've been having problems with just about everything.

I went back and looked and there were some Windows updates that hit right around the time it started. Not sure if that is what caused my problems but previously I've had issues where "good" iOS devices are rendered unusable by software updates (I can only use some LCD older Apple products and pretty much don't seem to be able to use them beyond iOS 16.1) so I know software changes can definitely create issues. There are quite a few threads on here about Windows updates also causing issues. I thought I had avoided those issues but maybe Windows finally caught up with me (and potentially you?)

Larkenn

fgrise Is there any reason you need to move office or could you just move back to your old office permanently?

Is the paint on the white walls gloss or matte? This could cause a problem if you're affected by glare.

Also is there a chance the office could be somewhat partly soundproof. I had this issue with a classroom in college years ago. The walls were a very bright white and I felt dizzy and weird in the room. I found it hard to focus my eyes and even hard to hear what people were saying. I came to the conclusion that the room was soundproofed. The room did have 2 large skylights letting in lots of natural light making the already very white walls seem even brighter. So maybe this had something to do with it too.

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

Is there a difference between the lighting in the old VS. new office? I'm guessing that the new one has much worse quality LED lighting with less color rendering index / more flicker etc

Edit: oh wait, you mentioned the lights were off. Hmm…

A few ideas:

Possibly the roughness on the walls is causing some level of pattern glare (I have one window with blinds that go in a zig zag pattern, if I use my perfectly comfortable laptop in front of it I start getting strain)

Is the chair different? Chairs that easily move around too much or are at certain angles make me feel dizzy even if I'm looking at a good screen

Any smaller lights in the room like indicator LEDs on power strips etc.? Many times these flicker in a slow motion recording

or, that more glare on your screen in your previous office was actually helping you (that has never been the case for me but I've heard some people here like @async prefer glare)

or, the power outlet is creating interference that ends up affecting your monitor or screen (try running on battery to see what happens - - I'm suggesting this because there was one place I lived at where my lightbulbs would flicker every 30 minutes or so, but at other places nothing would happen, indicating the outlets there were working differently)

or, the side that the window is on matters (I can't stand when light only comes in from the left and start increasingly feeling more stressed out, but am perfectly fine when light is coming in from the right. A doctor I talked to once after tracking my eyes even verified that I was reacting very differently to when any light or sound happened on my left)

You also haven't done any Windows updates, correct?

madmozg

At home every time I open a window from my left I will get an instant eye strain and nausea, sometimes even with my regular comfort monitor.

async

madmozg Open a window to let in air or open the blinds so you get more light?

I think anecdotal triggers like this are super interesting to experiment with.

More light? Try with a lamp there or some other uneven light setup.
Noise from one side only? Try with a speaker on that side to trigger it.
Dry eye from the wind? Try a fan that hits that eye.
Pollen / allergies? Try anti-histamines.

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

madmozg Yup literally the exact same for me. Similar with fan noise coming from left instead of right as well, although light is much worse. I tried to 'get used to' both of them once as I was unsure if it was just a psychological thing and it only made it worse lol

At that point back in 2023 a doctor recommended that I definitely should just ensure things are on my right as much as possible (instead of trying to balance them etc). Weirdly enough sticking to right side has actually made me slightly less sensitive to left side over time! We both agree now that it's part of a much deeper processing issue and not a "psychological thing that would be fixed by 'more' exposure" at least in my case

madmozg

async we are here open and polite to everybody. I don't get your joke, I just described what I'm experiencing in addition besides PWM/flicker issue

Seagull

Are there tints on the windows? I work in an office with floor to ceiling windows which are tinted and it triggers my eyestrain/migraines looking out of them. I get the same effect from certain colour sunglass tints.

fgrise

Hi all,

Thank you so much for all the suggestions! I will answer to all of them here.

First thing to say is that I agree there is some testing to do. The main issue is that when the symptoms get triggered, I can't escape to have them for the rest of the day even if I leave the office, so that makes it tricky or at least means that testing will need to happen on a longer timescale (with a lot of discomfort along the way).
The chair is different in the new office so I will try to use my old one if possible.
There are no other lights or power strips for now in that office.
The side of the window is an interesting idea. At home, I have a similar setup where I work but the window is on the right side, with noise (interstate) coming from that side as well. Sunlight is rarely direct because of the balcony, and my walls are painted beige and orange. At work, there is also noise (construction) from the side of the window (left). Trying my office mate desk that point the other way should be relatively easy.
In the new office, opening the blinds make this worse. The window doesn't open much, but that's not too different from my old office.
Adding a light on the other side of the office is an interesting idea as well.
I don't get dry eye symptoms and don't have any known pollen allergies. I have a fair share of food intolerances, but that's under control for the most part, and hasn't changed recently.
Stress could play a role, but I don't think it is the culprit here, as the discomfort happened right away when moving into the new office.
Laptop's windows updates need to happen because of IT, but this has not bothered me in the last several years on this specific laptop.
Finally, I am not entirely sure it is laptop/screen related. I wonder if it could simply be the office itself (so something to do with the lighting/reflections off the walls), so I need to go do some work in there that doesn't require a screen. But again, it will be at most one test a day as symptoms persist for many hours after they get triggered (and I also need to be able to do some work!!).

Thanks again, all. I will keep you posted!

photon78s

fgrise

Have you tested air quality and chemicals like VOCs? I've experienced summertime sunlight slowly causing poor quality materials to emit toxic smells in a high rise office building (where you are solely dependent on AC for ventilation) causing myself and a few other employees dizziness and other symptoms while working at our monitors. The company did eventually send in professional testing crew and confirmed some VOC or related type emissions.

fgrise

fgrise Update 1:

Today I went to the office (worked from home yesterday with no issues), and I stood there and looked at the window with the blinds opened. I feel that there was already some discomfort from doing that, but it is difficult to describe. It almost feels as if the sunlight was very strong, while not having direct sunlight coming through the window. The narrowness of the window (and height up to the ceiling) might amplify this effect (like being in a cave lit up by a small opening), although I have the same window in my old office without feeling any of this. What is clear though is that there is a lot of shadows and zones of varying luminosity on the walls since they are white. Unclear if this could be relevant.
I sat at my officemate's desk to see if having the window facing the other direction would make a difference, even with no laptop opened. After a few minutes, I started having a feeling above my eyebrows and while I left after 20 minutes, I now have a mild headache.

async

madmozg Jeez. The reason you don't get the joke is because there is no joke. It was a question about if you referenced blocking the light or air there, and the experiments I would have done to bring clarity to why you see that effect.

Seagull

madmozg

Relax, async was trying to help you explore and understand what triggers your symptoms. He was not rude.

fgrise

photon78s Thanks for the idea! I have thought about it, but would need to ask my hierarchy about doing some testing. What is interesting to note is that this office is on the 5th floor with poor A/C ventilation and my previous office is on the ground floor. But of course, it would probably have to be more than just me to be able to get some testing going. My office mate doesn't seem affected by it …

macsforme

photon78s Have you tested air quality and chemicals like VOCs?

Speaking of VOCs and other emissions, I have a personal anecdote I have been wanting to share regarding environmental factors. The beginning of my story is here, but in summary a few years ago right before my eye strain started, we renovated our house which included some new electrical wiring (new receptacles and some low-voltage equipment) and painted the entire interior. Soon after, as soon as I would enter my desk/work area I would experience an odd feeling which I would describe as a warmth or buzzing sensation in the back of my head with an accompanying brain fog. At first I thought it was literal warm air from my equipment, but after experimenting with disabling various equipment, I could not identify the cause (the sensation seemed to persist after the equipment was shut down).

I was away from my home environment for a few weeks recently for travel, and upon returning I could feel the sensation more distinctly. There was a very specific cross-over point of about six feet from the wall (for me), and at that point I had my wife try to feel it as well and she felt a similar sensation at about four feet from the wall. While subjective tests were difficult, we tentatively concluded that the sensation was reduced when equipment was unplugged and reduced further (possibly entirely) when power was shut off at the breaker.

So, I'm not sure if I have a newfound EMF or RF sensitivity, or if the newly-painted walls with warm equipment next to them causing VOC emissions were a factor. Interestingly though, every device that has "gone bad" for me went bad after being used in this location. This includes the 2015 15" Retina MacBook Pro, which I had used at work for several years, and was even my "good" comparison display when testing out new monitors. Then, after I bought a few of these MacBooks and used them at home in this area, all of them (including the one at work that I had used for years) became uncomfortable.

madmozg

async blocking that light source helps immediately, what else do you want to hear?

photon78s

fgrise

In my case it took a while to get up the hierarchy. We ended up relocating. Then their is OSHA involvement.

https://www.osha.gov/indoor-air-quality

photon78s

Larkenn

Sorry off topic, I have read that certain rooms have a comfortable RT or reverberation time in audio circles and the room should not be a "dead room":

https://commercial-acoustics.com/reverberation-time-graphic/

https://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm

This makes for a subjectively quite dead room, which is fine if the room is dedicated solely to Home Theater and surround sound, but is in my opinion a very overstuffed environment for normal living.

fgrise

Larkenn Sorry for the late reply. It would be complicated to go back to my old office. The somewhat good news (but very frustrating) is that it seems that I don't get really affected anymore unless the sun is really shining hard in the office (this has happened perhaps twice in the last month). The paint on the walls is matte, but the walls have a lot of structure. I do think this might simply be the culprit, but I still fail to understand why it got better unless there is some sort of built tolerance that doesn't trigger the symptoms unless passed a certain threshold (and is that actually a good thing or could it lead to long-term consequences?). I have asked to have the office repainted so we'll see. I have also been extremely stressed with work recently, so although this is not great, I don't think stress can explain the situation.

What I don't understand at all is that in my case, it seems that a very limited number of situations can trigger an enormous response, while I can do many other things daily like using my iPhone, playing my PS5 on my video-projector, … . When not at my desk, I work a lot in a cleanroom where the light is anything but natural (because this would expose the photo-resist) with tons of semiconductor equipment that is shielded obviously but also with tons of screens/computers that I use with seemingly no issues.

The one more piece to the puzzle is that I acquired a PS Portal this week (a handheld device that allows to play the PS5 by means of streaming it to the device) and this clearly makes me nauseous. This device is actually known to have stutter issues (because its display runs at 60Hz while the PS5 output is 59.94Hz, leading to frames being skipped). Interestingly, according to Reddit, many people don't seem to see or be aware of this stuttering. To me, it is super obvious and makes me feel really sick, like perhaps some sort of motion sickness. I have never suffered from motion sickness in cars, buses, or even rollercoasters so I am not sure what this is about but it is clear as day, and happens almost right away. But again, I fail to understand how there are so few devices or situations that seem to trigger those fairly massive symptoms. (Obviously, the device is going back to the store!).

async

macsforme VOCs are fairly easy to measure with an Airthings device. High frequency sound from wiring can be measured with some iPhone apps, at least to a certain point. If it is high frquency that is pretty easy to block with some materials for testing, or just wearing headphones.

photon78s

macsforme

Some of this sounds like dirty electricity or other kinds of EMF as well. Their may be the option of hiring a so-called "building biologist" but I have no idea the costs or even if they are available where you are. Their are a bunch of options to test EMF, RF and similar with handheld devices as well since you mentioned a specific cross-over point indicates to me perhaps a field that reaches your sensitivity threshold at the location and distance to the source.

https://safelivingtechnologies.com/building-biology/

I think in 2012, I went away on vacation and came back and found out they replaced the analog meter with a smart meter in our neighborhood. Felt nauseous for a few days but the symptoms eventually went away.

photon78s

macsforme

One problem with the whole emf madness is even if you do not feel anything right now, this does not discount long term effects such as changes from 20 years of exposure leading to more immediately felt sensitivity down the road.

And as other posts have mentioned, the more mundane electrical issues from bad wiring and dirty electricity can also affect the power electronics of the computer causing it to flicker and in turn adding to your symptoms. This to me may be a factor contributing to your observations of devices going bad after being used in that specific location.

A similar power electronics effect might have happened to my once good M2 MBP touchbar causing it to exhibit significantly more pixel flicker considering their were to my knowledge no relevant software changes prior to it going bad.