• Awareness

  • Paper uses florescent additives that reflect blue light into your eyes.

Hello all! I discovered something that would be interesting to you guys here. So for myself paper alone bugs my eyes when light is shining directly on it. Obviously it makes the white really glow but I looked into that more and it seems paper today all use optical brightening agents / florescent whitening agents which gives paper that white white appearance. I did some reading and it seems they react to light in the 300ish nm range and reflect back towards your eyes in the 400-460nm blue light range. This could maybe explain why some people like myself are sensitive to reading on paper! I might order some natural paper/notebooks that do not contain those additives..

I also found this article upon researching about this topic and they mention how eink is better than print paper due to those additives. WOW.
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20230313005152/en/Harvard-Study-Shows-E-Ink’s-ePaper-Is-Up-to-Three-Times-Healthier-for-Your-Eyes-Than-LCD-Screens

    jordan people in the past had eyestrain with filament bulbs and white paper due to red orange light. so much so that some print used long wavelength absorbing tint> odd how its now the opposite due to blue light misinformation

    white paper diffuses light effectively which can strain. do white walls and concrete asphalt bother you too? micronized man made particles suppress specular reflection https://ktcolor.com/en/blog/kt-color-difference/ -- pigment researcher.

        For what it's worth, I stopped having any issues reading on paper (which used to be a problem for me in the past, but no longer) once I switched to better LCD screens.

        I'm pretty sure that back when I was using really uncomfortable LCDs (such as the 14" 2021 M1 Max MacBook, one of the worst screens I've ever used, suffered through it for one whole year before I figured out it was the screen causing my vision issues after ruling out everything else)

        Screens like that were essentially training my eyes to focus incorrectly, which had long-term effects that actually significantly impacted my vision in the real world at the time.

        For example, at that point in life, I had a ton of trouble with depth perception, hand coordination, and I experienced similar fatigue and double vision while trying to read physical paper textbooks to when I used that Mac (most likely since I was usually using the Mac beforehand, and the fatigue it had already created in my vision would take hours or days to subside)

        It's basically like since I was doing anything I could to try to read on that Mac -- since I didn't know it was the source of my strain at the time -- it was totally overwriting the usual way I'm supposed to control my eyes, I got "too used to that" and it started influencing the way I knew how to use my vision in general.

        --

        However, when I finally found better LCD screens, it also significantly improved my depth perception in the real world

        The same paper textbooks I struggled with in the past are now perfectly fine to read for me. I have no issues reading physical text in the real world anymore.

        Interestingly, I would point out that I did NOT feel like my "real life vision" had fully recovered yet, when I was at the point where I'd "only found E-Ink devices".

        It actually took until I found some good *emissive LCD screens* where I felt like the parts of my brain that were affected by the Mac's LCD could truly start "unlearning" what the Mac had done.

        I'm not sure why E-Ink didn't fully start the recovery process, but I'm pretty sure it's because my brain recognizes E-Ink more like a "real life object" due to having no backlight, but a light-emitting screen is more likely to actually "train" my vision? I'm just speaking from my own experience though, not sure about this…

        -

        Note that if you still haven't found a good emissive LCD, it doesn't necessarily have to be "one capable enough to be your main computer monitor" to begin re-adjusting your real-world vision.

        For example, in my case the first screens I found in 2023, that started helping me "unlearn the Mac and get my vision back to normal" were actually through playing video games. Specifically, on the LCDs of an old Game Boy Advance SP (AGS-101 version with fully backlit screen), and a 2004 Nintendo DS (the top screen only, which is extremely comfortable -- note that the bottom screen on mine has different colors and causes some strain, probably due to panel lottery)

        After that point in my search for better screens, having gotten used to those devices, I no longer had issues reading on paper -- even before I found a proper strain-free computer monitor!

        And nowadays, I have in fact been able to find some LCD monitors/good PC output combinations that are super comfortable for me for general computer use.

        Such as the one I'm typing this from: (VA display: Sharp LC-G5C26U, 1366x768, max backlight, connected to a 2011 Raspberry Pi Model B running a VNC client -- hardware video scaler overlays off, disabled GPU antialiasing with scaling_kernel=8, and disabled EDID detection in Pi OS)

          jordan

          jordan eflect back towards your eyes in the 400-460nm blue light range

          that's interesting, keen eye for a revealing detail

              miripump Oh interesting I never heard about that absorbing tint.
              Regarding white walls and asphalt, I know when sun is shining on buildings with white walls it definitely bugs my eyes as it seems extremely bright. Most asphalt seems to be okay since its darker. I do have a neighbor who had their driveway redone with much lighter gray concrete and that definitely glows in the sun which is not pleasant to look at. I am hoping these sensitivities go away after I switch to my eink phone I preordered. It seems like the oled phone that I use for business, makes my eyes really sensitive to these things. I just am shocked with how they have those additives in paper. I wish older style paper was more popular, one that has no additives.

                  DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs Thats exactly what I was wondering if maybe the devices I have been using is whats training my brain to use my eyes incorrectly. It definitely takes a long long time to unlearn. I have went on screen breaks a few times a couple years ago that lasted many months and its crazy how much better my vision gets being away from all screens for that long. Do you still use your irlens glasses btw?

                      jordan Yes, still use the glasses, still have the same huge improvement in depth perception and movement coordination, I can immediately feel the depth perception increase and decrease every time I put them on/off. Note that mine are the entirely custom two-layer versions where I went through the proper procedure trying out literally every possible combination in a dark room, which I was actually able to do before buying the lenses. I actually came in to that original appointment not believing they would make any difference for me, but it was only after that test where I was convinced since I experienced depth perception in a way I never have before. Same benefits a year and a half later -- still using the same glasses.

                      This applies to both the added distance prescription version and filter-only version, I own two pairs of glasses with each.

                      (if a specialist is claiming to sell the lenses directly without the custom process, and doesn't offer an evaluation like I was able to do before buying, that's very likely a scam. I only bought them because I could tell they actually made a real, noticeable difference before buying.)

                      Although the benefits I get from them is primarily about in-real-life vision such as attending lectures in rooms with harsh lighting, don't feel drained anymore after going to stores, finding my way through large crowds. Many places I had issues with the lights before are now not a big deal. Reading on paper is also improved, although I don't struggle with paper with my normal vision anyway after retraining my eyes with better LCDs.

                      I don't use them with screens as they aren't designed to improve screens anyway, all they do in that case is add more glare.

                          jordan was wondering if maybe the devices I have been using is whats training my brain to use my eyes incorrectly.

                          Thats kind of crazy if you think about it, its like these devices are molding you to them...

                              beyondthelight Yeah that's what happened back when I had 14" MacBook Pro, 6 months into using it, objects in the real world started to feel "distorted" in the same way viewing images on the MacBook screen did as my eyes at that point no longer were familiar with how to focus normally.

                              For instance, at that point in life, my eyes started to slowly close if I wasn't actively doing something, I wouldn't know what to look at when I was idle -- because every time I used the Mac my discomfort was at the highest when displaying still content and not moving the cursor. I used that computer so often then (not realizing the screen was the problem yet) and my vision started to feel like that everywhere.

                              Took ~5 months of not using that Mac for that to stop happening and my vision to finally go back to normal.

                              The flip side is that good LCD screens can also retrain your vision in a positive way, as I mentioned in my prior post about the old game consoles.

                                  DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

                                  I wonder if there could be a non-optical way of visualizing a computer screen, I mean if bats can visualize the location of a small insect in pitch darkness by ultrasound, perhaps we can be trained to do the same too, after all, we are mammals too…imagine putting on some headphones and being able to visualize the a screen by ultrasound. But anyway, interesting anecdote and experience.

                                    DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

                                    What are your good colors just curious ? I had blue with double purple but seems my first blue only ones work best nowadays. Do you wear them all the time? I also found they help with depth and with being in stores and such with bad lighting.

                                    My diagnostician told me she has some people who found relief on their MacBook with them but sadly they don't fix the screens for me. I know with my iPhone SE which was the absolute worst device I used, it took away dry eye and head pressure but after awhile it would compound.

                                      beyondthelight right! That's how it feels like it's terrible.

                                      DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

                                      Last time I went screenless it was definitely over 5 months which was awhile ago but that was the best I ever felt. It sucks it takes so long to undo things

                                          moonpie had zero issues before 2020

                                          Perhaps its just like a sort of allergy your biology just tells you to stop looking at, even if you don's understand why, those kinds of things develop overtime, until there comes a point of enough is enough. Some people have a higher threshold than others.

                                            moonpie Why do you act so weird with members on this forum? Are you alright? Between creeping on their other socials and making false statements for them.. abnormal behavior 100%. I've been reading a lot on here and you constantly are at it with him and other members. Grow up

                                              moonpie

                                              FYI, as someone who is not an alt (as you can tell by my substantial history contributing to the forum and my distinct posting style), i will say that i agree with what Light's post is saying here. i think other regulars on the forum will likely agree too

                                              i do concede that i also feel your frustration with many members on this forum focusing on the wrong or off-topic issues, frequent lack of evidence and way too many anecdotes, and a general lack of progress on doing anything technical about the issue

                                              (i agree with you that i'm also tired of the fact that people here seem to not want to do seemingly obvious, methodical tests such as capturing a good and bad device with a lossless capture card and directly comparing the pixels — especially with how long this forum has been around)

                                              however, i also feel like a lot of your contributions here have not really done anything to improve this, and frequently have the effect of derailing threads.

                                              although some of the information you've posted here has been helpful contributions, such as that sine wave PWM is much more comfortable than other types (which I agree with)…

                                              most of your replies, I feel at this point, simply are not productive for this forum and do come across as very nit-picky or unnecessarily targeting specific topics or forum members

                                              i get that there are a lot of threads here that are frustratingly off-topic, i feel just as annoyed when i log onto this forum and see something like "changing my wifi router caused eye strain" with really vague reasoning, not even providing e.g. an up-close video of the screen

                                              however, i still feel like the most productive move here would not be to outright dismiss the thread entirely as it not only discourages new members but makes the forum feel a lot more stressful to post on for many of us in general.

                                              if you look at how i've been replying to these types of threads, i feel like i'm more on the right track —

                                              for example, instead of completely shutting down this off-topic thread on "i get strain reading on paper", i try to help them better connect what they feel to what actually is the more likely source of their issue, and point out details they may not know yet —

                                              "At points in my life I've felt a similar way, but I realized it was due to how bad screens have affected my habits in how I focus and move my eyes, even after using the screen.

                                              Turns out: I don't think there is any problem with paper itself. But, my ability to read on paper did actually significantly improve after I found better LCDs and started using them for extended amounts of time.

                                              I feel by taking advantage of my experience with LCDs screens having residual effects on my vision, using that in a "positive way" like this, it helped me a lot in getting re-acquainted with focusing my eyes "correctly".

                                              I would suggest that instead of avoiding trying LCDs entirely for fear of them causing flare-ups — start with some really simple, primitive ones that are much more likely to be comfortable, like old game consoles… which I don't think you (Jordan) have tried before.

                                              If you find something comfy like this, see if it ends up influencing your habits of focusing on other things like paper too. That's what I did a few years ago, and it actually worked pretty well for me."

                                              this is essentially what I did here, and i feel like it much more effectively directs the thread away from the off-topic or "too broad" idea — towards a direction which is a lot more productive for this forum (trying a type of screen someone hasn't tried before) — without de-railing the thread in its entirety.

                                              -

                                              i would really appreciate it if you take a step back for a moment and carefully consider my feedback here — it would really mean a lot to both me and the future of this forum in general. thank you

                                                  JTL locked the discussion .
                                                  JTL unlocked the discussion .
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