• AbstractOS

  • Eyestrain when switching from Windows to Linux

Wallboy Hi there, welcome.

I have tested out Linux distros for years. The main reason I never switched to Linux was due to the eye strain. I had issues as far back as 2007, when testing out distros I would notice the display seemed a bit 'harsher' compared to (then) Windows XP. In hindsight I got the same symptoms that I get now with any OS using dithering. After 10 minutes eyes feel heavy and something just feels 'wrong' about the output.

Before I discovered this forum, "What's wrong with me?" came to mind a lot. If this forum didn't exist and nobody else had these symptoms, at that point I would consider something psychologically wrong with me. Thank god there is a community here, we're not the ones with the problem.

Dithering in a nutshell is the rapid (very rapid) adjustment of adjacent color values to simulate the color in-between which cannot ordinarily be displayed. So when we use any OS with dither (specifically temporal dithering) every pixel is changing color values constantly. IMO this constant noise on the screen, albeit not always noticable, is affecting us. I remember as a kid staring at white noise on a TV (hey, it was the 80's and no world wide web 🙂) and while I didn't get headaches from it, I instinctively knew I couldn't watch that for hours. Same with dithering, I don't think it's healthy for that type of stimulus to be on our screens. Obviously by nature screens have a level of flicker (I always avoided 60hz CRT's and went to 75hz+) but it never caused the severe reactions that I get in this decade.

I would get an eye test just to rule out any other issue, but things such as dithering and the effects, are a very new idea, not recognised by any official authority as bad, and also no user-controllable way to disable (yet).

    So I found a possible bug with the Nvidia X Server Settings application. On my system I if I set Dithering to Disabled and then save the .nvidia-settings-rc file to /home, it doesn't set the Dithering option correctly. I had to open the file and for each line that said "Dithering=0" change it to "Dithering=2". 0 = Auto which usually means enabled. 1 = Enabled. 2 = Disabled. I then added the following command to my startup: "nvidia-settings --load-config-only". Logged out and back in and than ran the following command: "nvidia-settings -q CurrentDithering". The result now shows dithering is definitely disabled. You can also run the command "nvidia-settings -q Dithering" to make sure the value is 2 (for Disabled).

    Now when I open Nvidia X Server Settings, the setting remains on Disabled.

    Now as far as did it fix my issue? It's too late for me to test right now for a prolonged session, so I'll test tomorrow when I wake up and see if it helps.

    Something I don't understand IF dithering is the issue...is why I can use recent Ubuntu on very old laptops like 10+ years old...with no strain...but it strains in minutes on anything new. Even cheap new things with low resolution TN screens which SHOULD eliminate the possibility that its an issue with IPS or hish res etc. Is the old igpu i915 or whatever everything had back then not capable of dithering? Also why do old iPads on old iOS and iPhone 4s etc not dither (or presumably since they dont hurt and are ips)

    It would be pretty great if an "off" setting helped because I would love to use Ubuntu on new stuff. Shame the intel gpu integrated doesnt have an off switch....but if I had to get an Nvidia laptop that would work id would be better off than now. I've not tried Windows very much because anything I have got with Windows 10 to try strained...but you and some others say its NOT straining them. (or maybe you meant only Windows 7). I also wonder if its not psychological since there is always an outlier for every factor that does or doesn't hurt....at least one example...pwm, led, whatever...but who knows.

      vaz

      Dithering requires changing pixels every frame. Older lcd monitors had such slow pixel response times that they might not be able to respond fast enough to actually display any dithering.

      • vaz replied to this.

          vaz I read on the Intel forums that the Windows drivers will enable dithering on 8bit and above displays. Your old display is probably a 6bit and maybe Ubuntu recognises this and disables dithering.

          I have used Windows 10 in the last year on a 2012 laptop and it was perfect. When checking the driver in use I think it was using the same version supplied by OEM (2012 version) and not using a 2015> driver. So maybe it's just drivers, maybe it's Windows 10, without seperating it all (video output vs driver vs OS) - it's hard to determine where the 'point of failure' is.

          How are you with games consoles/smart tv's? This isn't just an issue with PC's for me and I can't use Nintendo Switch for more than minutes.

          Also iPhone 4 was fine for me, that had an LED display and I'm using a 2019 LED monitor now, so at least for me it's not LED.

          Also it isn't necessarily eye strain thats the worst symptom for me (my eyes don't physically strain) it's neurological. I feel spaced out/over-focused on the screen.

          • vaz replied to this.

              diop I read on the Intel forums that the Windows drivers will enable dithering on 8bit and above displays. Your old display is probably a 6bit and maybe Ubuntu recognises this and disables dithering.

              I don't think this is it because even most modern laptops, except high end ones, are 6+2, and I have tried new ones and new displays in moderately old laptops and those displays were 6+2 for sure. So if dithering is my pain it's not because it doesn't show up on under 8-bit panels.

              I broke out the Xbox 360 after not playing for a year, unrelated to eyestrain, and it was fine on a TN/LED flat panel TV. I don't have a new TV to test it on and I don't watch TV as a habit. I don't like looking at modern TVs in shops and people's homes because they have them on super bright color enhancement whatever modes always and I just find it noxious more than some neurological reaction, so I don't know how they would be with regular use and reasonable settings.

              I don't feel spaced out. My neck and face and back of head get tight and tingly in as short as a few minutes, and that progresses into a headache with hours. It's like something is making me tense around face and head. Contrast that with staring at super old stuff for 12 hours with no problems at all...not even a twinge.

                  Seagull Old TN panels from 2005-2010 etc were slower than current IPS panels? Current TN stuff is single digit ms and IPS is 30ish. Hard to believe an old TN is slower when TN has always been more responsive, and therefore that's why it wouldn't show dithering.

                      So I've had some time today to test if dithering was the issue for me, and it doesn't seem like it. I'm still getting eyestrain. So I'm just going to assume my eyes need to adjust to the new font rendering.

                      When you get a new prescription of eyeglasses is the only way I can describe this eyestrain phenomenon. Everything is more clear, but your eyes strain for the first few days.

                      One thing I did was download Redshift to adjust the color temperature to something really warm like 4500K. It does seem to take the edge off the "intensity" of the strain. Each day I'm going to increase it by 100K until I'm back at my calibrated 6500K, and hopefully by then everything will be Ok. And if not, then there must be something definitely going on differently in Linux then Windows.

                      EDIT: Hour and half later using Redshift, and it's been a drastic improvement in my eyestrain.

                        vaz

                        15ms is a fairly common response time for old TN, particularly on laptops which tended to be a bit worse. On a 60hz monitor that's an entire frame. I had a TN monitor bought 2001 with a 40ms response time, scrolling around the map on RTS games all I'd see is a grey blur.

                          vaz I don't feel spaced out. My neck and face and back of head get tight and tingly in as short as a few minutes, and that progresses into a headache with hours. It's like something is making me tense around face and head. Contrast that with staring at super old stuff for 12 hours with no problems at all...not even a twinge.

                          It's a mystery, isn't it? I don't have the symptoms you're getting but it's still a direct result of using new tech.

                          I've got two machines at my desk, an Acer 2010 tower and Intel 2018 NUC - HDMI cable going into monitor. 2010 machine is fine all day, no ill effects. 2018 NUC, within 20 minutes (same cable, same monitor) I get symptoms (heavy eyes, dilated pupils, brain fog), It felt like my eyes were forced open and wasn't blinking as much. When I used it extensively (over 8 hours a day for two weeks) and then switched back to my 2010 machine, I immediately felt the physical and mental relief. I forced myself to use the NUC for that long to rule out placebo and to see how bad it could make me feel, also if I could get myself through it by using it all the time.

                          My experience is nope. You might get more accustomed to the symptoms, but it's still affecting you in some way.

                              diop My eyes are dry a lot anyway and can be very dry with or without screen use...but paying attention to that hasn't mattered. I can still be on old screen all way with super dry eyes and no symptoms. I wish I could just have a modern laptop/OS combo of some sort that could be reproduced so I could get a couple.

                                Wallboy So I've had some time today to test if dithering was the issue for me, and it doesn't seem like it. I'm still getting eyestrain. So I'm just going to assume my eyes need to adjust to the new font rendering.

                                Hang on...are you saying you definitively shut off dithering on linux? If you are going by just flipping those config switches that doesn't prove its on or off.

                                    diop I read on the Intel forums that the Windows drivers will enable dithering on 8bit and above displays. Your old display is probably a 6bit and maybe Ubuntu recognises this and disables dithering.

                                    I'd like to address this again...what driver was ok for you and A. How do I get that and set it (don't even have Windows 10 nor know how to use it honestly as I moved off in the XP days, and B. Are you saying if I put Windows 10 and that old driver on say a 2015 Asus laptop etc with Intel 5500 that it will NOT dither because it has a 6bit panel?

                                    • diop replied to this.

                                        vaz I'd like to address this again...what driver was ok for you and A. How do I get that and set it (don't even have Windows 10 nor know how to use it honestly as I moved off in the XP days, and B. Are you saying if I put Windows 10 and that old driver on say a 2015 Asus laptop etc with Intel 5500 that it will NOT dither because it has a 6bit panel?

                                        That Intel forum info (dithering on 8bpc+) is when using the latest drivers.

                                        The trouble is, AFAIK, is Windows 10 will not run older XP/7 drivers. I think 8.1 drivers work on W10 but I may be mistaken. OTOH, any hardware made in say 2015 is only going to have 2015 drivers and above.

                                        If the monitor is genuinely detected as 6-bit, I am led to believe that no dithering will be enabled by the Intel driver.

                                        My daily driver and usable machine right now is a 2010 W7 desktop (using a Feb 2010 driver) 🙂.

                                        • vaz replied to this.

                                            diop Oh I thought you said you used Windows 10 on recent hardware and it was fine.

                                            I still don't believe what they claim about no dithering on 6-bit because MOST laptop panels...even on new devices...are 6+2. Only higher end stuff is 8bit. And I have tried 250 dollar WalMart Pentium Windows 10 laptops with Intel 610 etc and they strain same as any. Those have visibly low quality panels, TN, and cannot be 8bit....or I am wrong, they don't enable dithering on low quality <8bit panels (which in itself confuses me as those would need dithering MORE to look good than a higher bit panel), and that simply means dithering isn't an issue and we are back to square one.

                                              Wallboy So I've had some time today to test if dithering was the issue for me, and it doesn't seem like it

                                              How did you determine this?

                                                  vaz

                                                  You're right, I have no idea how to check. All I do know like I said is it didn't make a difference to my eyestrain one way or another flipping it to off. I have no idea how to go about actually checking. Need like a high speed camera or something?

                                                  JTL

                                                  Well disabling it in the Nvidia X Server Settings didn't make any difference to my eyestrain. With it showing set as "Disabled" in both the GUI and command line, I was still getting eyestrain. However I can't confirm if it's actually off.

                                                  It's like everything in Linux is so intense on my eyes. Even though my i1 Display Pro says everything is nicely calibrated, and in fact both Windows and Linux DO look the same in their calibrations, it's just something weird going on that is causing eyestrain in Linux. I did read dithering is supposed to "fake" 10-bit on 8-bit displays, which might explain the weird "intensity" of color I'm seeing.

                                                  Using Redshift for the time being to drop the color temp to 4500K helped a HUGE amount.

                                                  • JTL replied to this.

                                                        Wallboy Well disabling it in the Nvidia X Server Settings didn't make any difference to my eyestrain. With it showing set as "Disabled" in both the GUI and command line, I was still getting eyestrain. However I can't confirm if it's actually off.

                                                        It's unknown if the dithering options actually work (empirical testing is difficult, not impossible. I probably could do it if I had some certain hardware I don't have 😐)

                                                        What GPU are you using?

                                                            JTL

                                                            Nvidia 970 GTX

                                                            Just spent a few hours in Linux with Redshift enabled and it's still bothering my eyes enough now that I had to go back to Windows. Uggh this is so frustrating. Has anyone tested a high refresh rate (144hz+) monitor to see if it helps?

                                                            • JTL replied to this.

                                                                Wallboy Nvidia 970 GTX

                                                                That's a suspected "bad" GPU, and some revisions of the GTX 970 might have dithering always enabled, but that is weird.

                                                                    dev